'Twas Ever So

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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby jochanaan » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:41 pm

Petros wrote:The best / most active rulemakers have a tendency to be the one most abstemious / niggardly by nature and proud of it...
And the most hypocritical. Witness the linked story about First Baptist Church in Hammond, Indiana...
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:08 pm

Yes, well...

That may perhaps have been a case of Power People masquerading as People of the Rule [there are obvious overlaps] as was definitely the similar though less mega church that afflicted Herself's family.

But it is known that the ennea1 [and I say this with all due regard and respect and Christian and familial love for my mother, my brother, my grandma, my grandpa, and Herself's brother, all worthry specimens] is not only one of the prime rule creators but also prone to lust [though able to live off cornflakes and cotton batting breadf withg margarine and consider it a virtue].
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Petros » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:07 am

In my ongoing pursuit, I ran across this: http://internetbiblecollege.net/Lessons ... odesty.pdf

I particularly liked "If you are not convinced by the above many verses or passages, I doubt you would be convinced if there were another 100 similar verses. You have already predetermined your attitude to these matters before reading these above many verses from God’s Word. You have been conditioned by the culture in which you have been raised." [emphasis mine own]. Of course it cuts both ways.
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Petros » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:31 pm

If I found myself convinced and convicted, contrary to his prediction that I am a lost cause, I would be withdrawing myself and starting to work for the recovery of all those uncovered souls.

Out friend has done an excellent job of documenting a clothed culture [situated in terms of geography and culture between the relatively low textile ratio Egyptians and the more sternly clothed Akkadians and Persians.
and the set of laws designed to fit and mature that culture.

God did not design a one-size fits all dress code and etiquette book - we are the ones who do that. God's code - for humanity and not for Jewry in the Urheimat - is explicitly and unmistakably given us : Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thyheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No dietary code, no traffic code, no dress code, no tax code. Just obligation to God and neighbour.

By which, as long as she is as she is, I have an obligation not to force my skin on Herself, or others who would find it disturbing. But I am under no obligation to wear a tie or avoid deckle edge stationery [ingroup reference].
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:38 pm

The author makes the mistake of taking cultural attitudes about nudity and elevating them into the canon of scripture.

Lest we be accused of the same... when we cite examples of Greco-Roman social nudity, it occurred within the lives of the remaining 11 disciples of Jesus and the apostle Paul and yet we find no condemnation of it from their lips nor any of the second generation of Christians such as Polycarp who were tutored directly by the apostles.

It would appear evident that the gospel is culturally neutral, reaching out to both Jew and Greek, textile and nudist.
While worship of the Pantheon is out of the question, neither was there a mandate for Greeks to abandon the distinctives that make them Greek.

I am not putting textile attitude on equal footing with Christian naturism.
The body was designed for nudity. To the extent that weather and social conditions allow, our health is improved by following the owner's manual. The main issue healthwise seems to be the problem of people of northern European descent living in subtropical and tropical latitudes. They have to avoid the sun when it is higher in the sky than they were adapted to handle. Psychologically, we spare our kids a whole host of phobias, obsessions and neuroses by letting them grow up as clothesfree as possible.
We have several generations of American and European nudism to evaluate the outcome. Nudist culture works! It is not the hotbed of lust imagined by this author.
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Petros » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:30 am

Quite. I would love to know the background to the cultural gap between for the Greeks [not as we know great textile prudes] and [as documented by Herodotus] the Persians who were not into nudity. Of very similar genetic stock, living in roughly equivalent latitudes.
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:49 am

Petros wrote:Quite. I would love to know the background to the cultural gap between for the Greeks [not as we know great textile prudes] and [as documented by Herodotus] the Persians who were not into nudity. Of very similar genetic stock, living in roughly equivalent latitudes.


Weren't the original Olympics played sans clothing?
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Petros » Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:52 pm

Oh, indeed. Olympia would be a great place for it - possibly not in the winter, but when I was there, perfect. I believe I have heard it was agin the rules to participate in the games OTHER than nude.

The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:40 pm

bn2bnude wrote:Weren't the original Olympics played sans clothing?


Not only that, but the Apostle Paul makes a passing reference to this, a teachable moment from the nudity of Greek athletes:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.

Hebrews 12:1
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby jochanaan » Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:47 pm

The argument is made in the above-linked article that "Nakedness is shameful." But we should ask, Why is it shameful? Since the Victorian period, British and American Christians have mostly thought that nakedness is shameful because of its supposed "associations" with sex; but from things I've read, nakedness was considered shameful in Biblical times because it meant the naked person had nothing to wear. Not as many people say it now, "I've got nothing to wear" when they have a closetful of clothes--no, there were many in those days who, because of extreme poverty, literally had no garments to put on their bodies. (And that is a shame as much to the community as to the naked individual, because it meant that the community did not care for its own. But that's another post.)

Such are the dangers of interpreting Scripture through cultural filters we don't even know we're using.
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Re: 'Twas Ever So

Postby Petros » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:21 pm

Too true. "Shameful" rests on cultural norms which are not always rooted in anything that sensible.

Without going outside Jewry, Leviticus 21:5 tells the priests "They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

Uncovering is a sign of respect [feet for Moses at the burning bush, shoulders in Tahiti before the chief, head for European man before king or God]. Covering is a sign of respect [Jewish man before God, European woman before God.]
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