"Sons of God"? & nephalim

[Bare_Truth]

I was researching alternate interpretations of just who were the "Sons of God" of Genesis 6:1-5 and reviewing a video presentation ,see at: http://wn.com/sons_of_god, when this piece of art work popped up on the video. I found no way to download the image other than to go full screen and take a screen shot. And the image is therefore a but fuzzy/grainy, and as an aside I was sort of wondering who the artist was and what was he depicting. Does anyone know where I might find a sharper copy of the image?

Trying to puzzle it out, I think I can correctly identify one of the Nephalim as the big guy and one of the "daughters of men" who is presumably destined to be a second generation cross breeder, Maybe there is another female fleeing in the background, and I have no idea who is the only "textilet" with the conveniently modest flowing robe. Also the picture is a bit too fuzzy to be sure but either there are sheep behind the woman or the big guy is trying to put a fleece on her back for some likely questionable purpose.

As a note, the producer of the video seems to reject the notion that the "Sons of God" are of the Sethite line, and so far seems to be making some progress in rejecting that interpretation, but I have not yet finished the video.

That being said, I realize that this post is likely to go down a rabbit trail about "Just who are the sons of God?" mentioned in Genesis 6, but what I really am asking about is where can I find a better representation of this image and what story, (apocryphal or otherwise) is it trying to convey?

[Ramblinman]

Times haven't changed much...
This guy is 6'9" and the giants of Gath (post-Deluge) were similar height
I wonder if Goliath and kin had Nephiliim blood?? Or was this a second invasion of Earth?
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... 717741/pg1

Some references to polydactyly among these men indicate some weird genes. II Samuel 21:20 Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born to the giant.



Gonz Shimura, makes some very interesting points and seems to have done a good job comparing the text about the "sons of God" with other passages that use the same Hebrew word.

[jochanaan]

...I wonder if Goliath and kin had Nephiliim blood??...

Genesis 6:4 mentions "mighty men of old." Perhaps Hercules, Perseus and many other legendary figures were in fact Nephilim.

Hmmm...Now I just started wondering about Neanderthals and others. Maybe they were Nephilim...?

[Ramblinman]

...I wonder if Goliath and kin had Nephiliim blood??...

Genesis 6:4 mentions "mighty men of old." Perhaps Hercules, Perseus and many other legendary figures were in fact Nephilim.

Hmmm...Now I just started wondering about Neanderthals and others. Maybe they were Nephilim...?

Hmm...Neanderthal were not particularly tall, but especially robust. I guess we'd need more evidence to answer that question.
Perhaps the Greek legends themselves will provide a clue as to the exact timing of the lifespan of Hercules, Atlas, etc. Was it ante-diluvian? The early years afterward? I am inclined to think the latter. The Greeks do refer to a "Golden Age" when the earth was more fruitful and great heroes walked among us. (But a great hero may actually be a great villain depending on the heart of the observer).

If we are to take the reported lifespan of Shem* at face value, he would have seemed like an immortal to the weaker generations who followed. What a long shadow he cast on humanity post-flood!

*Shem was alive during his next ten generations, and he outlived seven of them. Abraham, the ninth generation from Shem, was alive for 150 years before Shem died, Isaac, Abraham's son, was alive for 50 years before Shem died. Both Abraham and Isaac would have been able to talk with Shem.
http://home.windstream.net/chelper/btl/ ... meLine.htm

[bn2bnude]

Why???

If the flood actually happened, they were all destroyed.

[Ramblinman]

Why???

If the flood actually happened, they were all destroyed.

A few possibilities:
1. The flood was local and Noah and family observed only the destruction of the world as they knew it and it was repopulated from beyond the flood plain, including those corrupted with giant genes.

2. A second incarnation of angels came to Earth and spawned these freaks in Gath.

3. The seeds of Nephiliim were within some or all of Noah's sons and daughters-in-law and the strain reemerged in Gath and a few other places post-flood.

4. The giants of Gath were freakishly tall and inclined to polydactyly, but it was a spontaneous mutation that had nothing to do with the previous supernatural ante-diluvian episode.

[Bare_Truth]

Well then getting back to the picture:
I have been able to enhance it slightly and improve the sharpness just a bit thanks to the appropriate tool in GIMP, my photo editor of choice.

And while looking at the picture I have begun to suspect that the big guy is not actually putting the fleece on the young lady, but rather that she is using a fleece to deceive him into thinking that she is just one of the sheep. (she + ep = sheep, ) His sunken eye sockets and the angle of his head suggest that he is perhaps blind. So it is possible that she is sort of pulling the wool over his non-eyes.

I believe that follows the theme of one of the tales from the voyages of the Argo from Greek mythology, in which the Cyclops was blinded and they had to figure out how to escape from his cave. Also, it somewhat follows the same theme from the account of how the strong man Sampson was blinded to make him controllable; "Blind the big guy so he can't get to you!"

So then perhaps if anyone knows of a story of a woman fooling a blind giant, by pretending to be a sheep, we might be able to get the name of a story being depicted here and then have something to search on the internet to find out who did this picture. and thereby determine, if this is a Greek myth painting or something about the Nephalim of the Bible. I was thinking Nepahlim just because of the context in which I found it. Of course it may be a story from one of the Apocryphal books, but I am not all that familiar with the Apocrypha.

Hey, Petros, (or others) how is your knowledge of the classics? Any help there?

[Petros]

Hah - yes, after blinding Polyphemus they get out of the cave by riding UNDER the sheep as they go out to pasture. He feels each sheep, they seem normal, out they go.

BUT that is in a cave, they are real sheep not hides, and there are not supposed to be women in the crew. Furthermore, he is supposed to have just one eye mid forehead [See my unwritten paper, "Odysseus in the land of Marimw" for African and other parallels]. The story is recycled for Sindbad



This painting I have found in about four places on line, used with rather National Enquirer style content and without attribution.

SOMEBODY found it and put it in play.

At present, I know of no tradfition, classical or elsewhere, where

[OzTech]

So this strip is pretty old now but perhaps I can add a scrap more info on the matter the subject of 'Sons of God' from something I noticed while reading the early part of Genesis.
In Gen 4: 16 it reads "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." From this we can determine that even though Adam and Eve had sinned and been, for their own salvation, kicked out of the garden and away from the Tree of Life they were still within the presence of God... probably near to where the Angels stood with the flaming sword preventing them from entering. I would conclude, therefore, that when Cain left and went to the land of Nod he became source of the daughters of men while those of Adam's family that remained near the garden and in the presence of God would, logically, be identified as the Sons of God.

By the way Ramblin, the flood would had been every bit of land where we now find fossils and, probably, coal. Whenever I have been spear fishing (or even just snorkelling, I've never seen a dead fish just laying on the bottom of the sea... or even on the beach... just waiting to be covered by sand. Also... never seen fish holding a funeral service for a fallen comrade. When ever I've been out hiking in the bush I do not find dead roos or wombats just waiting to be covered over by leaves and other forms of dirt. Other predators always clean up the remains and the bones get scattered over a large area. Fossils can really only be the result of some massive event where lots of water and soil has been chucked around. Same comes for the coal seams where trees have been ripped up washed into some spot altogether and then covered over by more stuff. I am inclined to think the flood was global. I became a Christian because the scientific assumptions about evolution started to fall apart and the physical evidence of a global flood was just one more point to support the authenticity of the Bible.

As for Angels... from my studies it appears (to me anyway) that God only created 3 companies of angels that were probably under the leadership of the Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer. Of these Lucifer took his third to earth and the other two thirds remained to do the will of God. My theory... and I'm open to any other better interpretations... is that these three Archangels originally answered to the Father, the Spirit and the Son i.e. Michael led his angels into battle at the command of the Father, Gabriel's mob delivered the words of God the Holy Spirit and Lucifer... well... I'm not sure what he would have been responsible for other than being involved with the creation... i.e. when the Morning Stars sang together (both Jesus and Lucifer have links to the title of Morning Star or Day Star). Under this conjecture I would say that it is unlikely that there was a second incarnation of angels to mess around with people upon the earth.

When Noah took the animals into the ark he was instructed to take to of their kind. In this all he would be required would be to take two dogs, two horses etc and, within the genomic pattern of these would be the full range of every other breed of whatever animal it was. My father use to breed budgerigars. From green and yellow, blue and white birds he got a red one... never seen one since but there it was... all part of the coding within the genes of the things. I would think that the same would be the source of the Nephalim. Even today you occasionally get some individual who grows excessively tall and the medical people have found, I think, some genetic link to that. It would be linked to the growth hormone that, if being overly active, would cause the individual to grow more than is normal the same as if, when it is under active, you get someone who does not grow much taller than a child. (I personally know one person that had issues here and is a perfectly formed individual but no taller than about 4 foot).

Oh... and by the way... I'm not sure that Neanderthals actually existed either... probably just some crippled up old man or a distorted simian that the evolutionists are trying to put forward as some sort of link between apes and man. I gave up the Evolution Religion many years ago and do not like the results within society that the general acceptance of it is now having.

[Ramblinman]

So this strip is pretty old now but perhaps I can add a scrap more info on the matter the subject of 'Sons of God' from something I noticed while reading the early part of Genesis.
In Gen 4: 16 it reads "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden." From this we can determine that even though Adam and Eve had sinned and been, for their own salvation, kicked out of the garden and away from the Tree of Life they were still within the presence of God... probably near to where the Angels stood with the flaming sword preventing them from entering. I would conclude, therefore, that when Cain left and went to the land of Nod he became source of the daughters of men while those of Adam's family that remained near the garden and in the presence of God would, logically, be identified as the Sons of God.

Genetics shows at least five lines of humanoids:
1. An undescribed West African hominid who left traces of DNA in some Homo sapiens populations of West Africa
2. Neanderthal (who left traces of DNA in European and Asian people).
3. Denisovans (at least some of whom were giants) who left traces of DNA in Australian aborigines, much of SE Asia and Melanesia. The Denisovans seem to have built great tombs and temples in the Americas and their giant-size skeletons in huge graves in the Americas, but apparently have left no trace of DNA in native Americans, though I need to do more digging into that question.
4. Hobbits (Flores Islanders) (dwarf-size humans who have not interbred with Homo sapiens).
5. Homo sapiens - humans alive today throughout the Earth.

Neanderthal is simply a race of modern humans. They were capable of breeding with Homo sapiens and that makes a good argument for their humanity. Denisovans were also human for the same reason, but there are reports of their great height. There are several online who conjecture that the Denisovans may have been the Nephilim of the Bible.
Less is known about the extinct race of humans in West Africa, but the traces of genes that remain may have helped humans adapt to the rain forest climate and the current inhabitants are modern humans in every respect.

By the way Ramblin, the flood would had been every bit of land where we now find fossils and, probably, coal. Whenever I have been spear fishing (or even just snorkelling, I've never seen a dead fish just laying on the bottom of the sea... or even on the beach... just waiting to be covered by sand. Also... never seen fish holding a funeral service for a fallen comrade. When ever I've been out hiking in the bush I do not find dead roos or wombats just waiting to be covered over by leaves and other forms of dirt. Other predators always clean up the remains and the bones get scattered over a large area. Fossils can really only be the result of some massive event where lots of water and soil has been chucked around. Same comes for the coal seams where trees have been ripped up washed into some spot altogether and then covered over by more stuff. I am inclined to think the flood was global. I became a Christian because the scientific assumptions about evolution started to fall apart and the physical evidence of a global flood was just one more point to support the authenticity of the Bible.

Evidence of flood events on a massive scale, but the great Deluge of Noah's day may actually have been the last of a series of global or near-global floods.

As for Angels... from my studies it appears (to me anyway) that God only created 3 companies of angels that were probably under the leadership of the Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer. Of these Lucifer took his third to earth and the other two thirds remained to do the will of God. My theory... and I'm open to any other better interpretations... is that these three Archangels originally answered to the Father, the Spirit and the Son i.e. Michael led his angels into battle at the command of the Father, Gabriel's mob delivered the words of God the Holy Spirit and Lucifer... well... I'm not sure what he would have been responsible for other than being involved with the creation... i.e. when the Morning Stars sang together (both Jesus and Lucifer have links to the title of Morning Star or Day Star). Under this conjecture I would say that it is unlikely that there was a second incarnation of angels to mess around with people upon the earth.

The second incarnation of fallen angels would have come from the 1/3 who fell along with Lucifer.
Not all fallen angels took human form and bred with women, some remain in their spirit bodies to this day.

When Noah took the animals into the ark he was instructed to take to of their kind. In this all he would be required would be to take two dogs, two horses etc and, within the genomic pattern of these would be the full range of every other breed of whatever animal it was. My father use to breed budgerigars. From green and yellow, blue and white birds he got a red one... never seen one since but there it was... all part of the coding within the genes of the things. I would think that the same would be the source of the Nephalim. Even today you occasionally get some individual who grows excessively tall and the medical people have found, I think, some genetic link to that. It would be linked to the growth hormone that, if being overly active, would cause the individual to grow more than is normal the same as if, when it is under active, you get someone who does not grow much taller than a child. (I personally know one person that had issues here and is a perfectly formed individual but no taller than about 4 foot).

There are four ways creatures can change:
1. Breeding with an outside population of related animals (also true for humans)
2. The appearance of genes that were not previously expressed (typically a function of dominant and recessive traits) but existed all along.
3. Genetic mutations caused by radiation or copying mistakes due to other reasons.
4. The direct intervention of God himself in the affairs of Earth.

[Maverick]

I read a book last year that proposed the Cro-Magnons as fallen angels in human form and Neanderthals as the Nephilim (angelic-human hybrids). The Cro-Magnons appeared to be a superhuman race, almost like Homo sapiens 2.0. The Neanderthals possessed superhuman strength and ability but don't appear to have had the "improved" stature of Cro-Magnon men, lending credence to the idea of a hybrid race.

A lot of the ideas and opinions on Nephilim as being some kind of hybrid being stem from the Book of Enoch (which appears to have been quoted in Jude and perhaps elsewhere, maybe 2 Peter?). And, as others have mentioned, some theorists have tied the Nephilim of the Bible in with the Titans of Greek mythology and the Flood in with a similar story in The Epic of Gilgamesh.

Don't forget that the Nephilim were also on the earth after the Flood, per Gen. 6:4. That could/would allow for Nimrod, Og King of Bashan, Goliath and his ilk....

I've read (can't remember where) one theory stating that Satan knew the only way for God to redeem humanity was by being born in the flesh Himself, i.e. as Jesus, and if he (Satan) could corrupt the seed of man through hybridization, then humanity would be at a complete loss. Gen. 6:9, mentioning Noah being perfect in his generations, could to support this, as if to say that he were genetically perfect in a genetically-corrupt world--because we all know that he was born a sinner like the rest of Adam's progeny.

If the Nephilim are/were hybrid beings, where does a hybrid soul or spirit go when the body dies? I've read that some theorists distinguish between demons and evil spirits--and that the idea of "limbo" could come from the fact that a non-human soul or spirit can't go to Heaven or Hell, and instead continues to exist temporally in the "material world." These folks speculate that these spirits explain a lot of paranormal phenomena we witness today, such as UFOs seen on the ISS live-stream cameras before the feed is cut because of "technical difficulties".

I'm shooting from the hip here; I don't have resources and links to reference immediately.

I tend to believe that myths, legends, and even lowercase gods have their roots in what was at one time reality. I think this stuff is fascinating, and I know one day we will all know the truth. Until then, I strive to keep my eyes focused on the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

[Ramblinman]

I read a book last year that proposed the Cro-Magnons as fallen angels in human form and Neanderthals as the Nephilim (angelic-human hybrids). The Cro-Magnons appeared to be a superhuman race, almost like Homo sapiens 2.0. The Neanderthals possessed superhuman strength and ability but don't appear to have had the "improved" stature of Cro-Magnon men, lending credence to the idea of a hybrid race.

I don't know, it is interesting to speculate, consider the fossil and genetic evidence and look at the Bible's commentary on those ancient days before the Great Flood.

A lot of the ideas and opinions on Nephilim as being some kind of hybrid being stem from the Book of Enoch (which appears to have been quoted in Jude and perhaps elsewhere, maybe 2 Peter?). And, as others have mentioned, some theorists have tied the Nephilim of the Bible in with the Titans of Greek mythology and the Flood in with a similar story in The Epic of Gilgamesh.

Though I don't place total reliance on extra-biblical stories, they do seem to agree with some parts of the Genesis account and that is interesting!

I've read (can't remember where) one theory stating that Satan knew the only way for God to redeem humanity was by being born in the flesh Himself, i.e. as Jesus, and if he (Satan) could corrupt the seed of man through hybridization, then humanity would be at a complete loss. Gen. 6:9, mentioning Noah being perfect in his generations, could to support this, as if to say that he were genetically perfect in a genetically-corrupt world--because we all know that he was born a sinner like the rest of Adam's progeny.

Noah was "perfect" not because he was sinless, but perfect because he came to God in repentance, unlike other men.

If the Nephilim are/were hybrid beings, where does a hybrid soul or spirit go when the body dies? I've read that some theorists distinguish between demons and evil spirits--and that the idea of "limbo" could come from the fact that a non-human soul or spirit can't go to Heaven or Hell, and instead continues to exist temporally in the "material world." These folks speculate that these spirits explain a lot of paranormal phenomena we witness today, such as UFOs seen on the ISS live-stream cameras before the feed is cut because of "technical difficulties".

The Bible speaks of these fallen ones as being in prison, not free to move about as are the demons that did not take on human form.

I tend to believe that myths, legends, and even lowercase gods have their roots in what was at one time reality. I think this stuff is fascinating, and I know one day we will all know the truth. Until then, I strive to keep my eyes focused on the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I believe that it is helpful to consider the book of Genesis and pray over its meaning. We do not need to understand everything, the message of God's redemption is still clear.
Genesis points the way to Messiah Jesus in cryptic ways. Later, God revealed more to the prophets about God's coming Holy One.

[natman]

Since angels are non-corporeal beings, I HIGHLY doubt that they have anything to do with Nephalim.

Rather, I think that the Bible is referring to the sons of Seth, who began to call upon the name of the Lord God, and the sons of Cain, which were worldly, focused on self and their own abilities to create cities independent of God.

In this case, the "Sons of God" may have been the descendants of Seth and the "Daughters of man" may have been female descendants of Cain.

Since all of the male descendants of Cain would have been destroyed in the flood, it may have been that some of Noah's daughter-in-laws may have been descendants of Cain and that their prodigy eventually became mighty warriors, "men of renown"... "Nephilim".

[Ramblinman]

Since angels are non-corporeal beings, I HIGHLY doubt that they have anything to do with Nephalim.

Generally they are non-corporeal, but there are exceptions.
One exception was the angels who visited Abraham and Sarah to tell them of their promised son. Then they went on to visit Lot and his family in Sodom.
The fallen angels would have taken on human form long enough to father children.

The original Hebrew is needed in order for us to understand the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men".
It may still be a problematic passage in Hebrew, but so much is lost in translation that we cannot rely on the English.

[nakedpreacher]

I'm with Natman on this one. The angels who appeared to Abraham and Sarah (possibly an example of a pre-incarnation theophany of the Son) were messengers of God, who has the prerogative of creation (being the creator). If God so chooses he can make bodies for his messengers at any time he chooses. Satan does not have that prerogative. I believe it is Jon who says, "through him all things were created, and without Him nothing was made" (not sure). If Satan has the prerogative of creation, how can we trust any appearance of the post resurrection Jesus, could it not have been Satan's ploy to drown out Judaism (which in that case would be the only true religion of YHWH) The resurrection is a foundational tenant of the Christian faith)). Satan's lack of creational ability may have been the very reason he chose to suggest to Adam and Eve of the necessity of covering their genitals, since it is through our genitals that we reproduce (create new human beings who bear God's image). If fallen angels were able to procreate with humans, this would be the ultimate debasement of the image of God, which I believe God would protect by denying that ability to them. It is possible that the children of Cain, being those who do not Honor God's image would selectively breed human beings to produce Giants and just as with pure bred animals this could produce genetic defects (extra fingers and toes, etc.(we know that this was certainly the case in the line of the Pharaohs)). The Idea that Humans bred with angels has Little evidence to recommend it from the text in Gen. (according to my reading) and introduces many theological problems going to the very foundation of our faith, which I am not willing to accept. I know that this theory is a popular explanation of the Nephalim but it does not seem to me to be satisfactory. If the Cain/Seth line explanation is infact true, then the nephalim Genes could have been passed on through the wives of Noah's sons.
Naked Preacher

P.S. from the above picture 6-9 is not that tall, I was 6-8 when I graduated High School