The Christian View on Transgenderism

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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby nudie66 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:51 pm

I do agree, Bare_Truth, that there are cases of genetic or cell mutations or abnormalities that cause certain syndromes as the one you posted, but I am primarily commenting on the recent prevalence of transgenderism that has constantly been in the news the past year or so.

Reports of "sex change operations" have been in the news since the 1970's, although it was extremely rare to hear such stories. However, in 2016, not a day goes by when you don't see some article that is promoting transgenderism, whether on TV, newspapers, or the myriads of online news/entertainment sites, whether it's Yahoo, Facebook, or whatever you choose to log on to. As Christians, we always believed (subconsciously or otherwise) that to accept ourselves the way God created us was the way to self-acceptance, which many people struggle with. We believed you cannot change the day you were born, your biological parents or siblings, your physical features, or your DNA, among other unique characteristics. But suddenly, within the last year, the media is bombarding us with the idea that to want to mutilate yourself to become the opposite sex should be accepted as normal. Actually, only 3/10ths of 1% of the U.S. population are transgender. I am baffled by how we are to consider this normal.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Maverick » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:53 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:The conundrum comes in to the transgender issue in the matter of numerous cases in which very young children assert that they are the opposite sex to what their genetilia actually is. That situation would imply that there is some inherent physical cause of the problem and the articles you cited fail to address that question but rather appear to deal with adult cases only.


Bare, you are correct, although the first article by Dr. McHugh does note this:

The doctors increased the pressure behind the proposal [to perform surgery on intersex children] by noting to the parents that a decision had to be made promptly because a child’s sexual identity settles in by about age two or three.


If that is the case, then perhaps the young children you refer to have already settled in to the sexual identity of the opposite sex.

I have read about (can't remember where unfortunately) boys who played with girls' dolls and were maybe more "feminine", but they knew that they were boys because they had Dad's parts, not Mom's.

jochanaan wrote:I, for example, am male and heterosexual, and happy to be so, yet I too do not fit what many expect a man to be: I never was into "rough horseplay" and was happy (for a few years) to play with my sisters' dolls and clothes. If I had had different, more restrictive parents, I might well have felt uncomfortable being male given my tendencies, and even thought about becoming trans; even as I am, I enjoy my "feminine" attributes as much as my more masculine ones.


Amen. I still find myself in this boat oftentimes (although I never played with dolls because I don't have any sisters). As I've gotten older I guess you could say I've become more masculine, but I still don't like horseplay or playing sports. I have, however, found the joy of exercising to increase my physical strength.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:33 pm

I think that there has been a sufficient level of discussion to arrive at a general sense of agreement that there appear to be real inborn driving forces to make some individuals clearly not fit clearly in one gender or the other. one rather extreme case I read in a medicall book some years ago about a man who was a twin that should have been identical. His brother had not yet begotten any children but he had, but then one day he experienced a degree of physical discomfort and discovered that he was exuding blood from his penis. This promptly got him to go to the doctor and after some investigation it was discovered that he had one testicle and one "ovotestis" The blood was because he was actually experiencing a form of menstruation. Exactly what was functioning as a pseuo uterus the medical book did not say. However a subsequent of his brother turned up that his brother actually did not have functioning testes I believe it said that his brother had two ovotestes. These mixed form gonads were considered to present a serious cancer risk so both of them had their ovotestes removed. Subsequently the twin with one functioning testicle chose to donate it to his brother and being a genetic identical twin the transplant took and the reipient brother was then able to beget children. It was one of those "for the medical books cases" as they say.

So then, all that being said, I think that at least we can arrive at a strong indication that there are some who for physiological reasons are transgender and if so then if surgical reassignment can make them more "normal" so that they can more properly function as one sex or the other then the reassignment surgery can be characterized as an effort to "fix what is broken"
Personally I believe that I could have chosen to do homosexual things or could have been seduced into that life style. However I did not choose that nor was I subjected to such seduction. One need not read much about the behavior of inmates in prison to realize that the "Gay for the Stay" effect is a choice (more likely a coerced choice) to be homosexual in behavior and that is a very different thing. But I think, not all that different from general homosexuality. I think that the overwhelming number of Christians know that the God prohibits a whole range of life choices to those who follow him, and a lot of us have fallen into those ways and have had to come out of them, (or if we are lucky to turn from them before we actually get into them though we have already lusted to do them). When and if there is ever a definitive physiological difference found that causes homosexuality, I may have to realign or fine tune my thinking on such things But I think that there currently enough indications to suggest that at least for some Transgendered persons that there is enough evidence to believe that a person may be born transgender and legitimately desire intervention to allign themselves with the gender opposite to what "experts" thought they were when born. Accordingly I do not feel confident that I can classify all cases of Transexualism in which the person seeks gender reassignment as falling in the realm of "sexual immorality". The rest of Matthew Neal's list I can agree with though I would have to classify "abortion rights" as related in many cases to sexual immorality but not sexual immorality per say. I simply see it as the unjust taking of a human life. and requiring a whole different sort of discussion and analysis than the others.

I do have to recognize that Matthew actually split his list into two parts "Sexual Immorality" and "Unbiblical Social Stands", but there is a degree of overlap in the items in the two parts, mostly in the sexual dimensions of those issues.

But getting back to Transgenderism which this strip was aimed at. I still cannot say when opting for gender reassignment is unbiblical and when it is biblically compatible, and one must bear in mind that such reassignment only creates a simulacrum of the opposite sex and I have not known of any case where it has achieved a completly functional reassignment. There have been a few cases where a MtoF meets and marries a FtoM And in one case where the surgery left the FtoM with functioning uterus and ovaries so that the couple was able to use donor sperm to achieve a pregnancy which the FtoM brought to term. Socially the couple were M and F but reproductively they were F and Eunuch + donor. But of course that starts to get into donor and surrogacy situations which are a whole different topic.

But please, if anyone thinks they have additional insights to unravel at least some of the Transgender cases, please feel free to comment further.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:24 am

The genetic anomalies are special problems, not only in the gender area, and I do not have what it would take to deal with them. But given the person with only male parts and those fully functional, and the person with only female parts and those fully functional:

We know there are psychologic traits that come out of the hormones produced by said organs, and we know there is a range so that one normal male may be more "male-like" than another. Further, we know that there are social constructs that recognize and prescribe this behavior or that as Masculine or Feminine - and the social descriptors of male in one culture may overlap with descriptors seen as female in another.

Suppose an man seen in his culture as effeminate marries a woman whose personality the culture seens as mannish. Why not? They can reproduce and share the rearing and produce healthy children at least as normal as I am. To induce the couple to do "gender reassignment", neutering them if nothing else - that seems wrong. It is interesting that as the culture claims to be defusing cultural gender imperatives, more of the young seem to feel somehosw they are wrong.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:42 am

Petros wrote:.... It is interesting that as the culture claims to be defusing cultural gender imperatives, more of the young seem to feel somehows they are wrong.
I think that you have just put words to a point that ought to be seriously considered in this discussion. I wonder if because we now have the technology to meddle in such things that the "possibility has created the probability of doing so"? Is the novelty of having this sort of "solution" creating the curiosity of trying it out?
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:36 am

Quite. Just recently I heard there is a proposal to multiply ape to human heart transplants. Will the real Christiaan Barnard please stand up? THEN the idea - or so I understood - was that was just pure experiment - after which human heart harvesting got going and human to human was the rule.

But yesy - many feel if we CAN then we MUST - whatever the cost.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby jochanaan » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:59 pm

On the other hand, would we have done so much research and experimentation if there weren't folks who felt they needed it?
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Petros » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:36 pm

jochanaan wrote:On the other hand, would we have done so much research and experimentation if there weren't folks who felt they needed it?


I could respons to that but to ensure it did not strike Saul and Andre as trivializing it will require time and careful thought. Possibly off the record. The short answer is yes.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Maverick » Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:16 pm

A note: suicide attempts among transgenders averages 40% of their demographic. That's 2 in 5 transgender people committing suicide. They are a small percentage of the population so it goes unnoticed... but imagine how the world would be if 2 in 5 of any other demographic were suicidal. We'd notice a problem. And yes, I think that transgender people do have some kind of mental "problem," some might say illness. That 2 in 5 does not count the number who have contemplated suicide but did not attempt it (as I understand it) so there could be even more who are depressed.

Source: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:24 pm

Maverick wrote:A note: suicide attempts among transgenders averages 40% of their demographic. That's 2 in 5 transgender people committing suicide. They are a small percentage of the population so it goes unnoticed... but imagine how the world would be if 2 in 5 of any other demographic were suicidal.
Of course one might wish to ask if this 40% might be an identifiable sub-group of that demographic. Perhaps if they were identifiable prior to transition they could be spared. Then again if our society's psychoanalytical diagnostics were that good the whole problem could be solved by better counseling and treatment or preparation. Also was this a different percentage when one analyzes M to F versus F to M. My own suspicion is that if one is raised in one gender and transitions to the other the adjustment is probably more difficult. If that were true then earlier transition might also improve these horrible statistics. Supposedly transition before puberty produces a better result and the use of hormone blockers is used to delay puberty to allow more time to sort things out. But to say the least I would not wish gender dysphoria on anyone.

In all this one might wish to consider the gender transition policy in certain countries like Iran. There, Homosexual males can get legal transition from male to female paid for by the state based on the theory that as females consorting sexually with males within the other strictures of Sharia law is acceptable. Then again one must consider how women are treated in Islamic culture. A male there would have to be highly motivated to make such a move and demotion in status in most cases. And as I understand the program, the bottom surgery is manditory! I wonder if any of the 72 virgins you get in paradise might be a transgender ?????
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby jasenj1 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:35 pm

Homosexuality is different than being transgender or gender confused/ambiguous. There are many men and women who are comfortable and secure in their gender but are sexually attracted to and enjoy sexual activity with the same gender. That is very different than those who were born with one type of body but psychologically identify with the opposite gender. And there are those who are born with ambiguous gender, are assigned one by the doctor, and then discover they mentally identify with the other gender.

Biology and psychology are messy. The Bible, and especially the OT Law, covers the broad "normal" and rarely touches on the edge cases. These anomalies would probably be considered "sin" by people in biblical times. The biological ambiguity would be seen as a flaw and imperfect - just as not being able to bear children was a sign God was displeased with a woman/family.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby New_Adventurer » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:17 pm

I wonder if this may be another fallout of modern society, in terms of overcrowding, pollution, diet, stress, security, etc. I recall rat experiments where overcrowding caused a lot of anti-social behavior in the rats, and our world certainly has that in many areas.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby jochanaan » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:47 pm

Maverick wrote:A note: suicide attempts among transgenders averages 40% of their demographic. That's 2 in 5 transgender people committing suicide. They are a small percentage of the population so it goes unnoticed... but imagine how the world would be if 2 in 5 of any other demographic were suicidal. We'd notice a problem. And yes, I think that transgender people do have some kind of mental "problem," some might say illness. That 2 in 5 does not count the number who have contemplated suicide but did not attempt it (as I understand it) so there could be even more who are depressed.

Source: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
We should not fail to consider how people, especially in schools, treat those who do not conform to "gender norms." It's bad enough for those who simply aren't "manly enough" compared to many of our crazy "norms"; I remember how I was bullied in school (not badly, thank God! I had too many older family members standing up for me) simply because I was a skinny kid who liked to read the encyclopedia to relax. How much worse is it for those who actively feel that gender norms just don't apply to them? I guess that, if we knew the circumstances of that 40%, we'd find that most of them were driven to it. :cry:
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Petros » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:08 pm

I remember how I was bullied in school simply because I was a skinny kid who liked to read the encyclopedia to relax.


Had you been in Miss Peebles' geometry class in Austin, we could have fought over who got to read the big dictionary during lunch period.

One of my crimes was riding my bike on the trek - ten blocks or more - to shop class at the next school instead of walking it as slowly as possible.
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Re: The Christian View on Transgenderism

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:03 pm

Maverick wrote:A note: suicide attempts among transgenders averages 40% of their demographic. That's 2 in 5 transgender people committing suicide.
There is a contradiction inherent here. Attempting suicide is not the same as committing suicide. Reports I have read are that most who attempt suicide are not really trying to die but rather seeking attention because they are not coping well with their challenges. Particularly, suicides ending in death are higher for men than women. So taking the quote at face value probably a good bit less than 40 % are actually achieving suicide. It would be most interesting to see how the percentages of actual suicides are occurring among those identifying as female and those identifying as male, in order to see if those match up with the percentages of
jochanaan wrote: I guess that, if we knew the circumstances of that 40%, we'd find that most of them were driven to it. :cry:
Bullying can be brutal, teasing is on the same spectrum but much milder, Internal turmoil and the ability or inability to deal with the inner turmoil can make a huge difference on how much from the outside is too much. So when you use a strong word like "driven", there has to be a judgement call as to what constitutes driven and by whom. Simple rejection especially when done by the majority of the group can push some people over the edge. Rejecting someone because they behave in a manner greatly different from one's self may cause the rejected person distress but it can be as much or more the doing of the rejectee and not the rejector. I firmly reject the Getto Blaster and Boom Car idiots in their obnoxious vacuous "look at what I can get away with" attitude and behavior So, I am not willing to jump to placing blame on the rejector. The whole situation is a spectrum for both the rejectee and the rejector.

Personally I reject obnoxious scornful preachy Athiests right along with "way of the master" street preachers and with equal disdain. Most frequently applying Prov. 26:4"Answer not a fool according to his folly....." to both equally.
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