a philosophy of Worship

Members are invited to post their personal poetry and favorite songs, if they have copyright permission. Please start a new thread for each one.<P>Only Permanent and Native Villagers may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:16 pm

nakedpreacher wrote:I agree that repetition can function as a mnemonic device and in that context is a very good thing. I plan to try to incorporate that into my expression, however there is one caveat to repetition in worship. Excessive repetition can make the mind hyper-suggestable which can lead to us accepting ideas which we would otherwise not accept. I believe that this was what was going on in the church I referenced where the sang 3 songs for 1 1/2 hours. I will elaborate more when I'm not typing on my phone


I would say nakedpreacher, (while using a turn of phrase and metaphor) We are on this point singing from the same page of the hymnal.
Oddly enough repetition can function to either strengthen or numb our minds. That which degenerates to become a repetition of just sounds numbs the mind while repetition of a thought/concept strengthens it
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:03 am

nakedpreacher wrote:I agree that repetition can function as a mnemonic device and in that context is a very good thing. I plan to try to incorporate that into my expression, however there is one caveat to repetition in worship. Excessive repetition can make the mind hyper-suggestable which can lead to us accepting ideas which we would otherwise not accept. I believe that this was what was going on in the church I referenced where the sang 3 songs for 1 1/2 hours. I will elaborate more when I'm not typing on my phone

But repetition is used throughout the Psalms, especially in the "call and response" style.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2667
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:51 am

bn2bnude wrote:But repetition is used throughout the Psalms, especially in the "call and response" style.

Could you elaborate with examples.

I am not familiar with the term "call and response style". I might know the style under another name but I figure it is better to ask than assume.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Maverick » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:51 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:But repetition is used throughout the Psalms, especially in the "call and response" style.

Could you elaborate with examples.

I am not familiar with the term "call and response style". I might know the style under another name but I figure it is better to ask than assume.


Psalm 136 is one psalm that repeats the same phrase, in this case, "For his steadfast love endures forever."

"Call and response" would mean that the person leading a recitation would read the first half of verse 1: "Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good."
The congregation would respond with, "For his steadfast love endures forever," the second half of the verse.
This cycle repeats until the end of the psalm. My church has done "call and response" with this psalm before.

Bare_Truth wrote:Oddly enough repetition can function to either strengthen or numb our minds. That which degenerates to become a repetition of just sounds numbs the mind while repetition of a thought/concept strengthens it


I agree. We must make sure that the thoughts and concepts we repeat are sound, and not just sounds.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Petros » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:53 am

So much for mantras.
But what of Orthodox use of the Jesus Prayer?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 4965
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby c.o. » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:22 pm

I know of a highly respected (and highly attended, and strongly missional), non-denominational assembly in my area that uses the "Disciples' Prayer" corporately after the teaching pastor finishes his prayers. It's almost like the obligatory "in Jesus' name, amen" that gets tacked onto so many of our prayers. Formulaic. Other large, non-denominational, highly attended and strongly missional assemblies never repeat the Disciples' Prayer at all. I'm guessing the varying outlooks are all over the country.

It seems that Jesus intended this to be a pattern for prayer, not a verbatim repetition. "Teach us to pray" (Lk 11:1), not "teach us a one-size, fits-all prayer, Lord." Jesus said "Pray in this way" (Mat 6:9), not "pray using these words." These appear to be two distinct occasions, and Jesus used the same essential pattern in both.

That said, i often use the pattern in my own praying. Hallowing His name is sanctifying His entire character (the full meaning of "name" for this culture). Asking His kingdom to come can involve all sorts of petitions for missionaries, those they minister to, people close to me, family, friends who need His kingdom to come to their souls; even hasten your return, Jesus! His will be done -- a good time for me to submit myself to Him and be open to what He wants from me; and strengthen me to do it as immediately and as perfectly as His angels. Petitions for provision -- so much more than bread, and not just for me. Footwashing (forgive my trespasses); make me to be one who forgives as You do. Keep me from trials and temptations that remove me from Your leading.

There's a comprehensiveness in the pattern, and an orderliness to it. But i'm also not condemning an assembly for using it. Who knows who might be there that really needs to hear those words? And who knows how many petitions outside the actual words are sent by those praying?
Life will leave me with what i deserve.
Grace never will.
User avatar
c.o.
Native Resident
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:47 am
Location: suburban Chicago

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby nakedpreacher » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:33 pm

I personally love the Call and Response style of worship, in the church I grew up in we called them responsive readings and there was a whole section of them in the back of our Hymnal... which we never used. The repetition which worries me is not responsive reading, nor prayers which are recited (be it Lord's prayer or any other memorized prayer) nor Catechism, nor Creeds. All of these may be useful to the believer for comfort, encouragement or knowing what to answer when ones faith is challenged; all of these have value in the life of the believer, even those recited by rote. What I am referring to is the repetition of a phrase of a song beyond the point which is justified by the phrase itself. In the service which I mentioned in my original post, we repeated, "let us become more aware of your presence, let us experience the glory of your goodness" somewhere between 30 and 40 times. (I hope I am not about to pick on someone's favorite song) It seems to me that this is a throw away phrase, since we choose to concentrate or to allow ourselves to be distracted from the presence of the Lord. Whether or not we experience his presence is not up to Him; He is there wherever we gather in the name of Christ, we choose to pay attention to his presence or not. That presence is there in the singing of songs, the reading of Scripture, the preaching of the Word, and the fellowship of believers but we do not experience it if we ignore Him. The Phrase became a nearly hypnotic device which I believe dulled the minds of the congregants (that is how I felt about it anyway). There was not enough truth in the phrase to bear that much repetition. That being said, I will often repeat the last portion of "How Deep the Fathers Love for Us" from, "why should I gain from his reward" a second time and then the last phrase, "His wounds have paid my ransom" a third time because this is a concept which I want to reinforce in the congregants memories, that it is actually his righteousness which we receive, and our sin which he took. Even this concept however, should not be repeated 30 times. I hope that this explains my caution about repetition to excess.
Naked Preacher

PS Sorry I have been away, we do not have WiFi at the house yet and my Data service is almost non-existent so I am only able to really be here while I'm at the hotel where I'm staying while working away from home.
If, when we judged others, our real motive was to destroy evil; we should look for evil where it is certain to be found, and that is in our own hearts. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
nakedpreacher
Native Resident
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Lexington, South Carolina, USA

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Petros » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:17 am

I have heard some are revolted by "Our Father, who..." Apparently if you pray the same words twice you are condemned for "vain repetition" - too bad for most Wednesday night prayer meetings.

On the other side, there is the teaching that the ultimate when in trouble - and aren't we all at times? - prayer is simply "Lord, HELP!" And God knows THAT gets repeated.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 4965
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:44 am

I am not sure If I have related this story elsewhere on this site in the past but as it may have value here I will relate it at the risk of retelling the same story.

There had been an ice storm followed by a continued fine misting of light rain just enough to keep the ice wet. I was out on foot as were several others when a car came along spinning its wheels trying to get "up hill" on a road that could barely be called a hill and I and several others got together and pushed to help this "Dolt" who had no idea how to drive on ice. We got him up the "hill" and he went on his way. Shortly there came another car going the other way and when he started to slip a little he had no more sense than to lock up his brakes instead of just coasting and steering. Having lost all ability to steer he slid down the hill and off the left side of the street because of the crown in the road. This put the left side of his car in the ditch but at least without any damage. We tried to push him out but to no avail. Then we turned to see the Dolt that we had previously pushed up the hill coming down the hill. He also locked his brakes and began to slide. The ice was so wet and slippery that when walking it was best to keep both feet on the ice and shuffle about 6 inches at a time. We could see he was going to slide into the ditch and hit the car already there and we all scattered. I was trying to get to the ditch where at least I could get a little bit of traction but I was about to become the filling in a car-human-car sandwich. I was barely able to utter a very short prayer under my breath, a mere 3 words. Standing on ice so slick that I could not even lift one foot for fear of falling I uttered "Oh My God" and in a manner I cannot explain given the lack of footing I leapt from behind the car clear across the ditch, and while airborne I somehow accomplished a 180 degree turn in mid air so that I landed in the brush on the other side of the ditch on my back instead of shoving my face into the brush. While I was airborne I heard the crash and crunch of the cars where I had been standing. The damage to the two cars was severe and may have totaled the first car in the ditch. To this day I cannot say that I know how the leap I experienced is physically possible, and I can say that that 3 word prayer (and it was a prayer) was possibly the most fervent that I have made.

So when I look at what Matthew recorded in Chapter 6:
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
I find that my experience in this case has a strong link to what I have underlined, and given that I had no more time than to merely utter a beseaching plea to God without details that this was a distinct application of that principle. and the profligate use of those 3 words in today's culture is linked to verse 7. Had I been addicted to to the use of that phrase as so many are today, I wonder if they would have been so efficacious as they were for me that day. That was about 42 years ago and it is still a vivid memory.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby nakedpreacher » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Bare Truth, we are thankful that you are here with us.

I do not think that anyone is guilty of vain repetition as long as they are actually mentally connecting with the words they are saying, regardless of how often their prayer is repeated. If we simply repeat a prayer in order to win favor and thus have the prayer granted that may be a different story, i.e. If I say these words 500 times, then God will see my righteousness and have to grant my request. I am reminded of children who think they can get their way simply by driving you crazy with asking for the thing, but this is not a great parallel. As a father I long to hear my Child's thoughts and feelings, regardless of if it is the same thought or feeling that they have had for the last week, it still brings connection with them. I am not expressing this well, but I hope you get what I'm driving at.
If, when we judged others, our real motive was to destroy evil; we should look for evil where it is certain to be found, and that is in our own hearts. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
nakedpreacher
Native Resident
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Lexington, South Carolina, USA

Re: a philosophy of Worship

Postby Petros » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:34 am

I have been given to believe that the Jesus Prayer repetion for at least some Orthodox is designed to imprint that setting on the mind so that it automatically goes to the Oh my God place. I have some similar road tales, though none quite so dramatic.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 4965
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Previous

Return to Worship in Song and Poetry

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron