Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Members are invited to offer their thoughts on a portion of scripture or offer a meditation on some aspect of God and God's work in the world. Short sermons are also invited. Remember, this is a worship center; please keep your thoughts worshipful, and start a new thread for each new item.<P>Only Native Residents may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:43 am

Wandering through my collection of Christian naturist related images, and reflecting on the spring of the year and Passover, these pictures seemed to strike an resonant cord.
#1: (I believe this one is the original)
Jesus_Washing_Peters_Feet.jpg
Jesus Washing Peter's Feet

Then I find that I have two variants of the above.
#2:
Jesus_at_Passover.jpeg
Jesus at Passover

#3
Last_Passover_Supper.jpg
Last Passover Supper

Obviously two different somebodies with some photo editing skills took
John 13: 4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
quite literally as Jesus dressed as the lowest house servant would to wash the feet of his disciples.

#3 shows a more muscular Jesus and the image has been tweeked a bit more. as the original parts of the image appear to have been sharpened and the colors though a little more muted are are more even. A body double was used but the face is identical and though slightly trimmed the hair is also original.

#2 has a skinnier Jesus and appears as a complete overlay with new face head and hair. The photo editing is pretty good but there are some rough spots. and little or no sharpening of the rest of the image. Also there is a whole new towel. The left arm of the rplacement is not quite correct because for it to be positioned behind the right arm and still have the fingers clasped around Peter's right foot it would have to abnormally long in the forearm.

Both #2 & #3 have better colors than the original. They are a bit more vibrant in #2 but the background image of the apostles at the table are sharper in #3. Both appear to be done with comparable skill but the #3 appears to have a bit more work in it. The same face on the new body appears to be blended very well. Also the halo is removed in #3 which is just a bit more work to put back the parts of the table that were covered up by the halo. Both #2 & #3 seem to have Christ more distinctly illuminated that in the original, whether that was intentional or inadvertent I am not sure.

Ok, I will stop being an art critic. Both are reasonably well done and seem more compliant with a literal reading of the verse and certainly appear to better comply with the majority rendering of the text than the original. Jesus was taking on the role of the lowliest of house slaves/servants of the time in both form and action.

This and the three on the Crosses are the only ones I am aware of where a famous painting has been corrected to reflect nudity of those times places and events. Are there any others?
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby jjsledge » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:05 pm

I think that the towel would have been smaller and more conveniently draped around the neck instead of tied around the waist. Unlike today, I don't think they had large bath towels available and perhaps the towel was a remnant of older clothing much like some of us use old tee shirts for rags.
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:43 am

jjsledge wrote:I think that the towel would have been smaller and more conveniently draped around the neck instead of tied around the waist. Unlike today, I don't think they had large bath towels available and perhaps the towel was a remnant of older clothing much like some of us use old tee shirts for rags.
I checked just to be sure but the scriptures say he girded himself for most translations, and one said he tied it about his loins, and the word being translated is akin to the noun indicating a belt. So I think the towel is girded in the right place and I doubt very much that anything small would suffice for washing the feet of 12 men without becoming saturated. It being the Passover and the Passover being so very special to the Jews I would expect that they would have the very best supplies. Also it being arranged meeting in what appears to be a hired facility I would think it to be all the better equipped. But if you have a reason for what you think it would have been and any reference to cite, please share. But given the nature of the occasion I certainly do not imagine it would have been "old rags". I would indeed expect that it may have been bought or specially woven just for that purpose.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby jjsledge » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:33 am

I can't find the link, but foot washing was a normal occurrence during festivals following mikveh and was normally done by a servant or slave. As I remember it some modern day congregations have developed special towels for their foot washing ceremonies that have a hole for the head covers the body and is still long enough to dry the feet. I am told it is about 10 feet long. As I remember the description in Greek mentions that it was divided and draped over both sides of the chest. The writer said that the Greek implied a dividing, which is why the special towel has a hole for the head and drapes over the chest and flows downward and is long enough to dry feet. I hope someone else has read the same article and saved the link. I have dried my entire body with a 8" x 8" wash cloth. You just wring it out as needed and then air dry.
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Petros » Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:06 am

Description in Grek? Whereabouts?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby jjsledge » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:56 pm

As I remember there was a word or part of a word that indicated a division of the towel which is why the special towel mentioned before had a hole for the head, poncho style. The writer believed the simplest solution is to have the towel hung around the neck, out of the way and easily accessible. I checked again for the link to no avail.
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby nakedpreacher » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:11 am

If I remember correctly I heard this from the Biblical Naturists blog, but I just checked it out myself and it is as he stated it. The word used for "wrapped (a towel) around his waist" is διέζωσεν, the root ζωσεν means to gird, but the prefix διέ means "through" so a possible meaning is to wrap through. Matthew Neal contends (I hope that attribution is right) ,and I can see his Point, that Jesus was placing the towel around his neck, passing his head through the towel and placing it on his shoulders. No word meaning waist is in the text, rather it simply says himself. By the way the word translated towel, really means linen and doesn't connote a particular size of cloth. I don't recall anything in the article about a special foot washing garment but that may be my faulty memory or it may be a different article.
Naked Preacher
nakedpreacher
Native Resident
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Upstate South Carolina, USA

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:07 pm

For what it is worth, each of the translations that I have accessed have used the term "girded" to translate the Greek and examining what can be gleaned from Strong's seems to support that well [1]
However one exception that is worthy of note is how John 13:4 is translated in "The Peschito Syriac New Testament Translated into English by John Wesley Etheridge"
J. W. Etheridge wrote:4 riseth from supper, and setteth his garments apart, and took a towel, (and) bound (it) upon his loins;
The Wikipedia article at:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshitta#History_of_the_Syriac_versionsplaces the translation of the Greek into the Syricac Peshitta in the first or second century.

Of course the exact means of attachment of the "Towel" or "Linen" Is irrelevant to the act of humility that it is intended to depict, that those in leadership ought to serve the brothers and sisters in Christ in humility and each of us should esteem the other worthy to be served.

It is doubtful that this would be much of a question here at all except that as naturists we see gross eisegesis being imposed on the scripture by commentators who cannot accept that Jesus would have had any other opinion about nudity that differs from their own clothing compulsions.
In his 'Notes on the Bible' John Wesley wrote:Layeth aside his garments - That part of them which would have hindered him
Apparently Wesley could not concieve that a virtually nude servant or slave might be the one appointed to wash the feet of guests. But we know that in the age when Wesley wrote that art works depicting the crucifixion, that Christ and maybe even the thieves would be shown with some manner of cloth covering the genitals. That is hardly a credible action for the Roman soldiers to have taken for someone that they wished to abase.

[1]
From Strong's Concordance on the Greek term1223 translated in English as Girded.
1241 diazonnumi dee-az-own'-noo-mee from 1223 and 2224; to gird tightly:--gird. see GREEK for 1223 see GREEK for 2224
--------------
1223 dia dee-ah' a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) ... fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.
--------------
2224 zonnumi dzone'-noo-mi from 2223; to bind about (especially with a belt):--gird. see GREEK for 2223
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Petros » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:16 pm

Alas, I think this is another case of riding the text further than the fuel supply allows.

The Pshitta just has mHaa - litraly "hit" - he dlung it around his waist, suggesting a fairly careless attachment.

The verb diazonnumai shows up in the Septuagint, Ezekiel 23:15, "girded with girdles around their waists" - I do not think we can g to far with the "through" function of dia; more like diaballo "to throw something across" as a rope over a river.

Not that the over the head apron idea is ruled oiut - just not demanded.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:32 pm

So as for what he put on and where upon him it was, we have probably beat that to death.
So focusing on a detail more important to us Naturists, Just how solid is the ground
1. about how much in the way of garments can we reasonably support.
2. how far can we reasonably defend that he disrobed to a state of nudity
---- Are we just speculating on a possibility
---- Are we defending a probability
---- Are we defending a certainty.

I think that it is more important than how he attached whatever the towel/linen/etc. to understand how much he first removed, but, neither of those is at all as important as the lesson he was illustrating about the willingness to accept a humble role and demeanor.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby nakedpreacher » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:13 pm

I was simply saying that this is one possibility, zonumee is listed in my lexicon as gird, which begs the question of why the dia is there. It is a question worth asking though we will probably never know the answer. I was merely making a suggestion which I had heard somewhere else , not saying that it was the only possibility
nakedpreacher
Native Resident
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: Upstate South Carolina, USA

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:18 pm

nakedpreacher wrote: I was merely making a suggestion which I had heard somewhere else , not saying that it was the only possibility
No defense needed, I doubt that anyone here took your contribution as other than an insight offered for consideration in the pursuit of edification.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2083
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Passover Thoughts - Original and 2 Variants

Postby Petros » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:54 am

Quite.

For what it is worth, languages with proposition-based compound verbs, and prepositions in general, there is a very wide and fuzzy range of function, and the concrete base meaning is often nowhere around.

Consider in general, in Hebrew, in 1847, indoors, in America .....
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin


Return to Worship in Devotional Thoughts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest