Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Members are invited to offer their thoughts on a portion of scripture or offer a meditation on some aspect of God and God's work in the world. Short sermons are also invited. Remember, this is a worship center; please keep your thoughts worshipful, and start a new thread for each new item.<P>Only Native Residents may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:14 am

Found at: http://trinityandhumanity.com/2014/06/12/did-god-forsake-jesus

Did God ever Forsake Jesus? Consider these words of Jesus on the Cross, “Eli Eli lama sabachthani?” These words translated are “My God, my God why have you forsaken me?” Did God the Father abandon or forsake Jesus on the Cross? Did the Eternal Father of the Eternal Son really pronounce him accursed? Is it possible that the same Father who declared, “This is my beloved Son in whom my soul delights.” really turned his back on Jesus so that he suffered alone and isolated in his hour of greatest need? Much has been written about this subject so let me throw in on the matter. Let’s look at what the Bible has to say and let our minds be conformed to the mind of Christ .

If we begin with the character and nature of God we will see a clear answer to this question.

In John 1:1 we read; “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God.” The Greek word for with in this passage indicates a face-to-face, personal, and intimate relationship. Jesus and his Father have eternally been in this intimate face-to-face relationship in the communion of the Holy Spirit. There has never been a time when the Father, Son, and Spirit have not been in intimate loving relationship. The Triune God exists as relationship and is Love. The Father, Son, and Spirit know no other way to be toward one another than to be as Love.

On the Cross Jesus is executing a rabbinic exercise where the teacher begins to quote a Psalm and the congregants there finish it. Jesus is quoting Psalm 22 which begins “My God my God why have you forsaken me?” The Psalm does not end in defeat it ends in victory. The point made by Jesus is victory not defeat or having been forsaken.

Also who is Jesus’ God? What God does Jesus worship? Well Jesus does not have a God he is God with the Father and the Spirit so just on that point alone the idea that Jesus is literally telling us that the Father has forsaken him cannot be accurate. In I Corinthians 12:3 Paul says, “Therefore, I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says, ‘Let Jesus be cursed!” I would hazard a guess that God the Father speaks by the Spirit. It is not the Father who put Jesus to death on the Cross… it was us. (Heb. 12:3) Consider II Corinthians 5:19 “…that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself…” The word for in there really means in. In John 14:20 Jesus says, “In that day you will know that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you.” Jesus and the Father mutually indwell one another and the Holy Spirit is facilitating this relationship at all times.

Some argue that because Jesus took on our sin God the Father had to turn his back on him because God cannot have any part with sin. Let us never forget that Jesus is God- co-equal with the Father and the Spirit. If God can have no fellowship with sin how did Jesus eat with sinners, become human, and finally take on all of our sin!

Also ponder this… there is a politician I know of that is on his third marriage. When he married wife number one he said, “I’ll never leave you nor forsake you.” Then he cheated on wife number one with the woman who would become wife number two. When he married wife number two he said, “I’ll never leave you nor forsake you.” Then he cheated on wife number two with the woman who would become wife number three. When he married wife number three he said, “I’ll never leave you nor forsake you.” Well neither wife number two nor three have any basis on which to believe him because of what he has actually done. He has proven that he will in fact leave and forsake. So if the Eternal Father of Jesus would leave and forsake him in his hour of greatest need how can we ever believe that he will never leave nor forsake us?

Let me say with clarity and determination… God the Father most certainly did not forsake Jesus on the Cross and Jesus did not say that he did. This Father’s Day as we celebrate all that is good about our dads let us put away in our hearts, minds, and in our Faith the blasphemous notion that Jesus’ Father ever turned his back on him and let us celebrate that he will never turn his back on us!

~ Bill Winn
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:16 pm

"Let me say with clarity and determination… God the Father most certainly did not forsake Jesus on the Cross and Jesus did not say that he did. "

Did God forsake Jesus?

Surely not.

But I cannot twist the evidence to suggest Jesus did not say those words, or that they are inaccurately translated.

It is certain that AT LEAST he was quoting Psalm 22. Which would not as such need to imply he FELT abandoned.

But, unless you are VERY antikenosis, Jesus IS human, his Godhead is crammed into space-time, he is under severe physical and mental stress [agony in the garden, spikes]. Seems to me there is a high probability he can feel with Gideon in Judges 6:

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be
all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the
Midianites: have not I sent thee?


Note - the Lord never directly answers the question.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:03 am

I find Bill Winn to have a rather pompous claim in the second paragraph

....we will see a clear answer to this question.....


He then proceeds with a flood of exegesis and eisegesis to pursue his point. And seems to arrive at a conclusion that is nothing more than an opinion that he holds as if he thinks he has logically proven a crucial theolgical truth.

I think that we are on shaky ground to presume that from fine nuances of words in an ancient dialect of a foreign language we can deduce with certainty much beyond the idea that Jesus was in great agony as he hung from the nails during his execution.

What bothers me is to see people put such stockin, and speak so highly of their conclusions which are not much more than opinions at best. That is not to say that the topic is not a good one on which to meditate on the possible meanings. The problem comes when we confuse these opinions with precise theology.

One of the most ludicrous examples of this I saw occurred over a discord about whether we can know if Jonah was alive or dead all the time he was in the belly of the great fish, and hence when he was spewed up on the beach whether it was a traumatic survival or the result of a resurrection. The amount of rancour that ensued with accusations of theological deviancy was appalling.

I do not mind if Bill Winn holds to his opinion of what Jesus words precisely meant but I think it quite dangerous for him to delude anyone into thinking he has proved a clear and unequivocal answer.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby jjsledge » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:05 am

Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:32 am

Herself once heard [not sure if I was there, we recall different things from differengt angles] a sermon which she found troublesiome, even offensive, maintaining that Jesus on th\e cross was truly happy and having a grand old time, an d to suggest he was not just playacting the normal reactions of the crucified was tantamount to heresy. The claim was made that when he said Let this cup pass he was just kidding, he REALLY was looking forward to the great treat of being beaten and crucified.

Takes all kinds - some people prefer a Christ with NO humanity. Like the theory apparently once held that he was beamed out of the womb so Mary could stay virgin [!!!] and he would not get mucky from the birth process.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby pipermac » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:13 pm

If our only penalty for sin was physical death, and "He descended into hell" was not in the Apostles Creed, the answer would be straightforward and easy, however, the penalty for sin is more than just physical death, and "He descended into hell" IS in the Apostles creed, so the answer is far more complex.

I have addressed this topic in:http://pipermac5.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/at-what-cost/, and perhaps my take on it may help answer this age-old question.

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!

Steve :cross:
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 1:14
User avatar
pipermac
Native Resident
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Davenport, Florida

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:20 pm

Read with interest. It beats me how people can think much of redemption if Jesus was having the most fun ever. Like, did God create us capable of sin just so HE could have the ineffable joy of beiung crucified?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:01 am

pipermac wrote:If our only penalty for sin was physical death, and "He descended into hell" was not in the Apostles Creed, the answer would be straightforward and easy, however, the penalty for sin is more than just physical death, and "He descended into hell" IS in the Apostles creed, so the answer is far more complex.

I have addressed this topic in:http://pipermac5.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/at-what-cost/, and perhaps my take on it may help answer this age-old question.

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!

Steve :cross:

Steve, One has to wonder if your hell-bound friend will find his unique torment in the afterlife: sitting on a boring cloud throughout eternity playing the same song on a harp, over and over and over again. Whilst you will be "partying" with your friends new and old in true bliss, the peace that passes understanding?

Shadrach, Mecheshach and Abednego walked through the fiery furnace with Jesus in perfect comfort and safety.
It's not where you are that makes a place heaven or hell, but whether Jesus is by your side or not.
Still, I am not saying that the righteous and wicked will reside in the same place.
Ramblinman
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:22 am

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:16 am

"Still, I am not saying that the righteous and wicked will reside in the same place."

Herself recently came across a teaching disturbing to her, which said or implied that those in bliss are constantly fully aware of the torment of the blissless - I think by implication [I did not bother looking at the source] glad their loved ones are damned.

That would not be her idea of a good.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:44 am

Petros wrote:"Still, I am not saying that the righteous and wicked will reside in the same place."

Herself recently came across a teaching disturbing to her, which said or implied that those in bliss are constantly fully aware of the torment of the blissless - I think by implication [I did not bother looking at the source] glad their loved ones are damned.

That would not be her idea of a good.


Hardly a day goes by that I don't hear offensive (and more importantly ill-conceived) doctrines.
It hearkens back to an old debating technique: where your argument is at its weakest, shout those words and pound your fist on the table to distract the audience from the sheer folly of your words.
Ramblinman
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:22 am

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:09 am

Bare_Truth wrote:I find Bill Winn to have a rather pompous claim in the second paragraph

So, did the Christianity Today article that jjsledge posted above help clear up some of your concerns?
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:54 am

I know how long videos get overbearing to some...

This one is the The Gospel in Chairs done by Brian Zahnd.

This addresses the issues raised in the articles as well.

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:08 pm

I get the black and white - I guess I will have to watch to find out why they are FOLDING chairs.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5522
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:23 pm

Petros wrote:I get the black and white - I guess I will have to watch to find out why they are FOLDING chairs.

My guess is cost. :)
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:24 pm

Actually the state of death is illustrated by folding the chair so it can no longer stand and is laid down.

Of course folding chairs are light weight and easy to move and the illustration of who is facing and who is turning their back and who moves around the other to affect the relationship could be done with swivel chairs on casters it would be more clumsy and time consuming.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2518
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Next

Return to Worship in Devotional Thoughts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest