Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

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Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:12 pm

Caution: Surprising Twists and Turns Ahead:

Let me lay out the facts for you (Because this is convoluted and bizzare) and then ask for your observations and conclusions. As this gets a bit convoluted and confusing I am going to try to be more explicitly clear than the news reporter was. (I had to read it about 4 times just to get it straight.)

-- A family of mom dad and 5 kids are part of well enough known very conservative religious sect of long standing.

-- The father of the family decides he is transexual and chooses to transition to becoming a woman (Here-in-after, to avoid confusion of pronouns etc., I use the term "birth father" and "birth mother" for the biological father and mother of the 5 children, )

-- The conservative sect will ostracize ANY person of their group who who has contact with any transgender person and this includes the children of the "birth father"

-- The children of the "birth father" would also be ostracized if they had contact with the "birth father" regardless of who arranges the contact.

-- The Birth Father seeks court ordered contact with the 5 children.

-- The Birth Mother argues that granting visitation contact between the Birth Father and the 5 children would severely harm the 5 children because the congregation they have been raised in and continue to be raised in would then ostracize the children which is the only community they have ever identified with and such a situation would be harmful to them, and given the "all encompasing culture of their religious community" that appears very plausible.

-- The law requires that the judge hold the physical and psychological well being of the children to be most paramount in visitation decisions.

-- There is nothing about the care and nurturing of the children in the sect that is arguably harmful or abusive about the practices and beliefs of religious sect that is purported to be inherently harmful to the children for families within the sect and had not the Birth Father gone off into transgenderism, there would be no issue at all to be brought before the court.

#############################
Ok, Hang on to your hats! The judge has ruled in favor of denying to the Birth Father, any contact with the 5 children !!!!!! The ruling being that the ostracizing of the Children would be serious harm to the children. Apparently the Judge does not see any cause for action against the sect members including the Birth Mother and 5 children and to do so would be interference with their religious rights.
#############################

This is apparently not a hypothetical case as it may be reviewed at:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/03/transgender-ultra-orthodox-court-case-reveals-painful-clash-of-minority-communities

####################################
So then if you were the judge, how would you balance out the needs and rights of:
-- The Birth Father
-- The Birth Mother
-- The five children
-- The religious sect
-- The civil society at large
????
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby Petros » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:56 am

Unfortunately, neither needs nor rights are at issue - not that they do not exist. Desires and drives on the one hand, permissons and prohibitions on the other.

As judge, onlooker, relative I would pray.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:11 pm

The reporter declared his bias by referring to the father as "her".
The guy definitely has some issues, suicide attempts to underscore the main concern.
And the fact that he, as an ultra-orthodox (rather than Messianic) Jew and has not trusted Messiah Jesus as his savior is an even greater concern.

News reporter Katy Tur is reportedly have a great deal of difficulty dealing with her trangender father, "Zoey" Tur.

He wrote:
When I came out in May have 2013 I told TMZ’s Harvey Levin and National Public Radio I was done running, hiding and I would be open and honest. No one would put me back in the closet. I broke that pledge and I’ve out of integrity. I apologize. My daughter Katy said she’s ‘terrified’ to meet me. She told me the day My x GF Carrie Fisher died that she was going to ‘set things right’ and come see me. That was 171 days ago. Her promise was a whole lot a nuthin. It’s been 1,500 days since she last saw me and told me I was a terrible father after having just come out. I was crushed. On June 8th, I turned 57 and no call-not even an email. On Pride Sunday the NYTimes published a story about Katy that left me humiliated. The timing and optics couldn’t be worse.Truth is my daughter does not support the LGBT community. She’s Transphobic and fearful that it will hurt her career as a broadcaster in these alt-right times putting career before family. In the words of Paddy Chayefsky: She’s pure television.

So imagine how much more traumatic it would be for children? Not good!
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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby JimShedd112 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:35 pm

Admittedly I didn't read the article but based upon the fact the one daughter is a television reporter I assume she is an adult and imagine her siblings are as well. Therefore, I fail to see a judge's role in safeguarding the welfare of the family. Further, it seems to me the religious leaders are in conflict with the teachings of Jesus who reportedly said love others as you love yourself, leaving judgment to God not man. Jesus also reportedly associated with criminals and sinners.

I believe Jewish law and religion is based upon pre-New Testament teachings and, therefore, do not follow the teachings of Christ who taught tolerance versus strict adherance to established religious principles.

Honestly, I believe the family members have the right to make their own choices and to live with the consequences of their decisions.

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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby JimShedd112 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:06 pm

Initially I was opposed to government involvement in this matter, believing based upon the fact the daughter referred to is a television reporter the children were adults but then learned they ranged in age from 2 to 12 years old at the time of the judge's ruling. Still, i find it difficult to agree with the judge in this matter, despite my belief in religious freedom. The sect involved, in my opinion, is living by old World, even ancient, standards which is unfair to those not old enough to decide for themselves (that is, children). After all, J was forced into a marriage he/she didn't want because he believed it was his duty to please his parents.

The world has changed with the advancement of technology, yet those yoked by the teachings of such a religion are, in my opinion, being left behind. Once adulthood is achieved, persons should have the right to choose for themselves. No doubt, the birth mother was concerned for the welfare of her children but more so on an emotional/social level than any other, denying the children contact with their birth father after he announced his transgender-ism.

In this instance I must side with the birth father against both the judge and the religious community.

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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby natman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:50 pm

If the judge really took the time to determine the affect on the children, then I would side with the judge.

The Bible, which, in my humble opinion, is as relevant today as it was when God inspired the words, teaches the Church how to deal with someone who is unrepentant in their sin. Part of that includes "excommunication" from the "church", which in this case, includes the "birth mother" and the children. If GOD gave us these guidelines for dealing with this sort of issue, then I feel it is wise to consider it.

I personally know of a situation not much different from this, albeit it is the mother who has decided to make the change. The affect on her children has been HORRIBLE! One child is suicidal. Another will not be in the same room with her "mother" and the third has become a total introvert. The father is gone much of the time with his job. They are Roman Catholic, but their church has not stepped up to intercede.
SON-cerely,
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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:57 pm

Jim, television reporter Katie Tur is not involved in the custody case in England.
I just mentioned her because although she is a grown woman, she was still horribly traumatized by her father's sex change surgery.
How much more so kids!

Our court system is no better than the judges in it.
Some are wise and some have bought into the most outlandish notions of morality and make terrible, terrible decisions as a result.
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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby New_Adventurer » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:54 pm

Never confuse an application of law with justice.
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Re: Transgender/Religious/Civil Government CLASH !

Postby JimShedd112 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:11 am

Well said by you both Ramblinman and New_Adventurer.

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