Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

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Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Bare_Truth » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:17 am

At the bottom of the page: http://cnvillage.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5771 A comment was made by Ramblingman that I have seen in equivalent forms before on Naturist sites. I did not want to add yet another branch to developing rabbit trails so I am choosing to start a new strip on this. Also please note I am not critiquing Ramblingman's statemen as good or bad in any sense of values, It is just a very good illustration of the point I am trying to make.

Ramblingman's statment was:
A nudist couple who are AANR or Naturist Society members, active in naturist camps as a family and not mixed up in some controlling religious system are not likely to be arrested and have it stick, nor fired and shunned by everyone they know. Although some of the hardshell Baptists are as condemning, legalistic, judgemental.
(I added he color.) I suppose the accuracy of the red part could be argued, but please note that he did say "likely"

It is however the blue part that concerns me, because:
-- The AANR now has a "non-discrimination based on gender orientation" clause
-- The naturist Society (TNS) has had very strong homosexual involvement from its inception
-- Many camps resorts clubs, have adopted directly or indirectly "non-gender orientation discrimination" policies
-- Any religious organization that insists on "No Homosexuality !" is likely to be classified as "controlling"

If we read 1st Corinthians, we see evidence that we should be keeping some social distance from practitioners of sexual immorality
In first Corinthians Paul wrote:1Co 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
Now it is no great jump to believe that a committed Christian or his denomination could arrive at a conclusion that "Other than business dealings "at arms length" social interaction with homosexuals is not to be done and that one should exercise discretion to avoid such fornicators in most social situations.". That is not an unreasonable or illogical interpretation of scripture. Hence they choose to avoid such organizations listed above. However such a person might find no problem to try to evangelize homosexuals and lead them to a righteous life.

But why should we allow society to impugn and doubt the sincerity of such persons with respect to chaste non-sexual nudity just because they do not join social organizations that promote social fraternization with the homosexual community.

A. Please note that I have assiduously avoided stating my choices of freedom of assembly (which may or may not include non-assembly). So please no ad hominem attacks.

B. The question I raise is, "By what right does society judge an individual by what groups he does not join?" Why must a naturist join any particular society. Why does the naturist have to offer this sort of "proof of innocence"?

And please note this is not the only special interest that comes under such coercion. In some countries one is not allowed to own a gun unless they belong to and are a member in good standing of a Gun Club!
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Petros » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:27 am

Well, by what right in those days the jus primae noctis?

Besides the "god-given right" meaning which is most unpopullar nowadays there is the understanding that a "right" is what the government graciously says you may do, and the right of force that says "I am going to take your money and what are YOU gopingh to do about it. Rights mean what Big Brother says they mean.

But beyond that - is one / how is one to shun sinners [and then with whom do you deal?] when they are your sister, or your brother in law, your mother [all examples from our family] or your colleague or your student or your employer?
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:52 am

Bare_Truth wrote:...It is however the blue part that concerns me, because:
-- The AANR now has a "non-discrimination based on gender orientation" clause

While this is true, I do not see that such a policy forces Bare_Truth to engage in pleasant conversation with a suspected homosexual on the poolside cot adjacent to him.
Living where I do, it is likely that the optometrist, a clerk at the grocery, the guy who delivered flowers to a loved one, and a woman who did some volunteer work with me a few weekends ago are all engaged in sexual practices that are indeed an abomination to the Lord.
In addition, I run a small business and some of the large corporations for whom I contract have policies that are favorable to same-sex couples. Sometimes I am asked to sign a document stating that I will not say rude things to homosexuals at these job sites.
So when you make an issue of attending a family-friendly naturist campground because it has AANR affiliation, I am a bit puzzled and struggle to see why I should draw the line about visiting at a campground where a high percentage of my friends are evangelical Christians and of course heterosexual.
On one occasion I attended a nudist event with a male friend and I suppose some folks might have reason to believe that I am a homosexual because of that. I met two single women there and thankfully they made no such assumption.

Bare_Truth wrote: If we read 1st Corinthians, we see evidence that we should be keeping some social distance from practitioners of sexual immorality
In first Corinthians Paul wrote:1Co 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

Take a closer look at verse 10 and you'll see "ye must needs go out into the world" contradicts your assertion that we are to shun all immoral people.

I did meet one hetero couple at a resort who graciously invited several of us to listen to some music on the deck behind their trailer. The party got a bit rowdy and I decided that this event was not edifying, so I thanked them for inviting me and retired to my tent site well away from the noise and drinking.

I have never had regrets about spending the day at this campground. People bring their kids, there are gray-haired grandparents, teens, a few singles, some couples and quite a few Christians in an overwhelmingly wholesome environment. I never met anyone who was so obviously homosexual in word or deed that I could say if any were even there at the campground.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby jasenj1 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:20 am

B. The question I raise is, "By what right does society judge an individual by what groups he does not join?" Why must a naturist join any particular society. Why does the naturist have to offer this sort of "proof of innocence"?

Because historically there have been problems with people showing up at resorts/clubs for sexual purposes, e.g. picking up sexual partners or to ogle, rather than for "naturism". Membership in a recognized organization is a strong indicator you know what "naturism" is and how to behave. It also shows you care about "naturism" enough to part with some money to support the cause.

I have never been in charge of a resort/club to know how often these problems arise, or how effective requiring a membership card is in eliminating problem people, but that is why it's done.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby jochanaan » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:57 am

When the Rocky Mountain Naturists club in Denver was active, several times they invited a gay men's naturist group to join them in their swims, and I met several of those men. Whatever I may think of their "lifestyle," they were as pleasant to talk to and as committed to naturist ideals as any of us. They were by no means there to "pick up" or to do public sex, only to swim free. So I had no problem being near them or sharing a hot tub or other facilities with them.

And as a musician active in the Denver poetry scene, I meet many who are likely or acknowledged homosexuals. I may not choose them for my closest friends, but I talk to them, we exchange views about almost everything under the sun, and some have told me that I am the best example of a Christian they have ever met--so I must be doing something right.

We "associate with sinners" all the time. As I recall, so did Our Lord and Savior Jesus. :)
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Petros » Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:11 pm

Item: some of us try very hard not to say rude things to anybody.

Item: some things some of us say with the best of intentions get construed as rude.

Item: some people are primed to read things as rude without considering other options.

Item: some of us do not read people as this or that without explicit statements. Check out my student of whom I heard how grateful he was I treated him just regularly in spite of his homosexuality of which I had no idea.

Item: One of the Desert Fathers was visited by three of the juniors.After an inspiring conversation, one asked the abba to make him [figure a Coptic palmleaf origami figure or whatever]. He refused - I have no time. The second asked - Sorry, I can't. The third asked. The abba made it and gave it to him. After they all left, his disciple asks, how come you refuse twice give one? Abba done say, That man was a sinner withy a guilty secret. If I had refused him, he would think I was rejecting him for what he is.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby nakedpreacher » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:25 pm

I saw many sins listed there in that passage. When Paul made his list he was talking about those in the church, with such we should certainly not associate but instead should apply church discipline. His comment which Ramblinman referred to is that this does not apply to those in the world because we would have to leave the world to avoid them. If the AAMR accepts homosexuals without discrimination, how does that affect me. If they are members of the AANR then they have to abide by the same code of conduct as heterosexuals which means that we can interact freely on a nonsexual basis. I personally would rather deal with a homosexual than a reviler (gossip), Coveter, or idolater. These people are around us every day and in every situation and we are called to Love them and share Christ with them. I do see the value in membership though I am not a member of any organization.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby MoNatureMan » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:17 pm

A family friendly resort is a very clear description. If we take the traditional and Biblcal view of 'family', that would not include homosexual couples.
Maybe all the resorts need to reword their bi-laws and state that they are
A traditional, Biblical family friendly resort
OR
A modern, non-Biblical family friendly resort

The AANR is just joining the group, in helping to destroy the 'Traditional Family Unit', designed by God.

We need to reach homosexuals for Christ - True
Christ died for homosexuals just as much as for us - True

But the agenda planned and being run by the devil himself, is to destroy the Biblical Family in America and he is doing a very good job of it.

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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:29 am

I threw in the gun thing at the end of my opening post because it has always struck me as odd and unjust for guns to be allowed only to those who belong to gun clubs, as if a non-member could not be trusted to be just as careful and observant about gun laws as member of the club could be. And if every naturist club in the state has numerous homosexual members, I think I should not be judged as suspect if I choose to remain a private, solo naturist but If I found a Bible believing and God honoring Christian Naturist Church I would be happy to join that.

The issue for me with respect to nudism is that I should some how be more suspected to be a sexual pervert if I do not belong to a widely recognized naturist organization, especially when it is because I see that organization condoning people who behave in a manner that has historically been considered a sexual perversion.

As to how I regard the scriptures from 1st Corinthians that I cited, I think nakedpreacher and I agree that Paul intended that we stay away from those in the church who persist in the practice of the listed sins, but for those outside the church that we might engage in common commerce with them but not seek them out socially (evangelization excepted). So if the only gas station in town is run by a homosexual, I might buy gas there, but if he invites me over for a neighborhood pool party, I will decline.

My view is strongly aligned with MoNatureMan when he wrote:
Maybe all the resorts need to reword their bi-laws and state that they are
A traditional, Biblical family friendly resort
.......
The AANR is just joining the group, in helping to destroy the 'Traditional Family Unit', designed by God.


If clubs and membership resorts cannot declare themselves Biblically compliant I do not see how we can say that we have either freedom of religion or assembly.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:02 am

Perhaps it is my lawyer grandpappies whispering to me:

"Family friendly" does NOT mean "families only" Can we reword to say what we mean if "family only" is in fact what we mean?

And perhaps we should remember that my brother in law and perhaps his same-sex partner are part of my family, so if we all come together....
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:09 am

Bare_Truth,

I agree with your sentiment that a gun owner need not be a member of NRA to justify his wish to use guns responsibly, but we don't live in a sympathetic environment in many parts of the US of A.
Having AANR membership is simply one more tool for blended families with hostile ex-spouses to convince uneducated judges and other public officials that there is such thing as good nudity and bad nudity and that you take a stand for the good. You can say all you want that this is not the ideal situation and I would agree entirely.

Allen Parker, founder of Christian Nudist Convocation and pastor of White Tail Resort Church, has mentioned in the past the possibility of creating a distinct naturist group that is fully Biblically compliant.
It was in the context of AANR's apparent heel-dragging over Paradise Lakes and other resorts that had overtly offered sexually charged events and appeared to look the other way at public swinging (not the sex itself, but crude public solicitation of the unwilling by pushy swingers, sometimes even teenage girls were being solicited for sexual trysts).

AANR finally took action and although some would argue a bit too little and a bit too late, but they made enough effort that talk of a new family naturist group fizzled.

I am not aware of the extent of AANR's advocacy of homosexual acts, but perhaps you can explain where they stand on the issue.

Oddly enough in several Protestant churches, there have been struggles over homosexuality.
Devout Bible-believing Christians have sometimes had an honest difference of opinion whether to stay on to fight to restore our denomination to moral purity or to leave and form a church that is "biblically compliant".
If we disagree, it is over tactics and I am not even willing to dig in my heels and claim that I have articulated the best or only way to resolve the crisis.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:30 am

Petros wrote:.... "Family friendly" does NOT mean "families only" Can we reword to say what we mean if "family only" is in fact what we mean?
Well I don't think we mean family only. just not family disruptive either in behavior or in theory of what a family has always been defined as, without modern distortions.
Petros wrote:And perhaps we should remember that my brother in law and perhaps his same-sex partner are part of my family, so if we all come together
But your B-i-L and his partner are family disruptive as they promote as a family something that is not, plus your B-i-L's partner is not family despite usurping family terms to make it seem so. Redefining family as something other than what it has always been is a way to create perverse situations, it is part of the word tricks that the homosexuals have been using to spread their perversion.

MoNatureMan wrote: If we take the traditional and Biblcal view of 'family', that would not include homosexual couples.
Maybe all the resorts need to reword their bi-laws and state that they are
A traditional, Biblical family friendly resort
How is it that we are the ones who have to add extra adjectives to the word family. Maybe it ought to be the homoseuxuals who have to use terms like "Pro Homosexual Pseudo Family" or "Pro Homosexual pseudo Marriage". Does that make it sound that is is something different or less than a marriage or family? ...... Well, it is !
MoNatureMan wrote: A modern, non-Biblical family friendly resort
That is exactly the sort of thing that I am advocating although I thinkit is pussyfooting and a euphemism if the word "pseudo" is left out.

MoNatureMan wrote: The AANR is just joining the group, in helping to destroy the 'Traditional Family Unit', designed by God.
Amen :like:

MoNatureMan wrote:But the agenda planned and being run by the devil himself, is to destroy the Biblical Family in America and he is doing a very good job of it.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:05 am

Some naturist places have a strict man/wife couples only rule.
Others allow a select number of singles on any given day. Usually men are abundant and asked to wait their turn a single woman can gain admission any time she wants.

I have been going to a place that had such a good way of attracting couples, couples with kids and single women that they see no need to put single guys on a waiting list.

The gay guys are not treated rudely, but they really don't fit in with this setting, so you don't see them. I do fit in and I get invited back! Around here homosexual naturists have simply formed their own groups.
At Haulover and Sandy Hook/Gunnison they have self-segregated in specific parts of the beaches.

I know that homosexual men participate in naturism in higher numbers percentage-wise than straight couples.
I think it goes back to the way American women are raised and the oversexualized concept of nudity in the US.

This has created problems here and there in naturist venues near major cities when too many of the "gay guys" start dominating the crowd. If this happens, the resort owner might find himself running a mostly homosexual club if he hasn't made some effort to keep the focus on straights, especially couples with kids.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Jon-Marc » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:54 pm

Yes, Jesus associated with sinners, because they were his reason for coming to earth, "to seek and to save the lost". While we're told in 2 Cor. 6:17 to "come out from among them, and be ye separate", we are not told to avoid non-Christian people. The followers of Christ in His day were sent out to win the lost to Christ. That would be impossible if we avoided them. As far as I know, that commandment is still in effect.

I've only been rejected at one resort for being single, although their excuse was that "We believe you only want to come here as a voyeur." I've been a member of five resorts and lived in three, and I've gotten along very well with the other members and residents.

Gulf Coast Resort in Hudson has changed ownership and its name; it's now called Eden Resort. The owner was lesbian and she and the female cook lived together. There was also a male couple there when I lived there. This resort where I live now has a male couple who both work here. They're both very likable and friendly guys. I don't shun them because of their lifestyle, but I don't consider them to be my friends either. I do talk with them, but too often you're "guilty by association." We also have a lot of heavy drinkers here. If I avoided everyone that isn't a Christian or who is a "sinner", I would be a lot more lonely that I am.

One day at Turtle Lake Resort, I met a guy coming out of the clubhouse as I was going in, and he lamented to me about his failed attempt to get a woman to spend the night with him a the resort. He said his wife didn't know where he was. I suppose he thought that my being a man that I would understand his "problem" and sympathize. I don't remember what my reply was, but I certainly didn't sympathy. I just politely listened, waiting for him to quit complaining and leave.

People (particularly men) visit a nudist resort for all kinds of reasons--not all of them good or moral reasons. While I haven't seen a lot of sexual activity in resorts, I have seen some--mostly discreet to some degree. We say that being socially nude isn't sexual, but it can be to newbies who are only looking for any sexual enjoyment.

Trying to claim ones "God-given rights" will fall mostly on deaf ears that don't want to hear it. Most people (including many who claim to be Christians) couldn't care less what God wants or says--especially if it disagrees with what they want. People choose to do whatever is right in their own sight and mind. God's commandments take a back seat to people's wants and desires.
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Re: Why do we allow society to practise this discrimination

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:21 pm

As is usual, Bare Truth and I are in agreement on the essentials, but - and this is one of the problems of our spiritually troubled age - creating policies that will avoid problems on the premises and keep the community and the group from stamping on one another's toes.

I do not want - well, the etymologist and historical linguist in me DOES want, but I choose not - to do a big thing on "family". But taking a pretty conventional simplistic reading:

My parents, siblings, grands, uncles / aunts / cousins and other blood kin are part of my family, yes? The equivalent people on Herself's side are also family. And their marital kin. That includes Diana's out of wedlock daughter, it includes Herself's same sex preferring half brother. By my standard it does not include the last's partner whatever marriage certificate the state may chooe to issue.

Not quite so clear is Diana's husband's son by previous wife, or Niece Liesl's sisters adopted daughters. I am inclined to include them as family, but it is a grey area.

Just a thought experiment: Suppose my nuclear family to be naturist [would it had been true]. In 1957 we spend a couple weeks at the Emerald Shores Naturist Campground - an early 40s couple with their young aged 2 - 15. In 1977 we go back - or try to. We are a couple early 60s, four single adults 22 - 33, and a 30+ couple consisting of one naturist and one textile.

Do we get in? Should we get in? What do the by-laws have to say to make it happen?
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