Praying for your spouse regarding "Good Nudity"

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Postby LivingFree » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:36 pm

The Pharaoh of Egypt is one case where God tried ten times, but Pharaoh didn't budge until his son died, and then a day later he still recanted, but it was too late to keep the Israelites in bondage.
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Postby MatthewNeal » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:07 pm

LivingFree wrote:The Pharaoh of Egypt is one case where God tried ten times, but Pharaoh didn't budge until his son died, and then a day later he still recanted, but it was too late to keep the Israelites in bondage.


Multiple times in the account of the Exodus, we are told that Pharoah and his officials hardened their hearts. But, in contrast, for the fourth plague, it says this (Exodus 9:12 - NIV):


"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses."


God had a very definite purpose throughout the 10 plagues. He wanted it to reach #10 so that the death angel would be sent to egypt and not even the israelites were exempt from that judgment. All mankind was under the same judgment! Unless... the blood of a lamb had been shed on their behalf.

Without the hardening of Pharoah's heart, we would not have the Passover... that great picture of the work of Christ to spare us from certain death.

I believe that God was at work turning the heart of Pharoah exactly according to His plan, not just for the fourth plague, but for all of them. Pharoah was also responsible, of course, be he was still only a pawn in the Lord's hands! I'm not sure I fully understand how such a paradox can be, but it's how I read my Bible, so I accept it as true and seek a more complete understanding.

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Postby LivingFree » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:01 pm

MatthewNeal wrote:I believe that God was at work turning the heart of Pharoah exactly according to His plan, not just for the fourth plague, but for all of them. Pharoah was also responsible, of course, be he was still only a pawn in the Lord's hands! I'm not sure I fully understand how such a paradox can be, but it's how I read my Bible, so I accept it as true and seek a more complete understanding.


This is the right interpretation if you're a Calvinist, or if you want to read your Bible in B/W, like a western mind would read it. There is another alternative.

God wanted to deliver his people from Egypt, and set them free from their bondage. If they had been allowed to live in freedom in Goshen, the Exodus never would have happened, and God would have found a different way to bring us the Savior. Very likely in the course of time the Israelites would have migrated back to Canaan, anyway, to fulfill God's promise to Abram.

However, Pharaoh didn't want to lose his free, slave labor, so he resisted. Obviously, as a deified monarch, what god was stronger than the Pharaoh? In his mind, there was none. At first, he just acted with political correctness, playing with Moses, and the Israelites saw it as "hardening his heart." After four plagues, the Israelites began to see a pattern. Every time God placed a test before Pharaoh, he said "Yes," and then later changed his mind. So the Israelites began to say, "Whatever God does, it hardens his heart. God is giving him more and more chances, and it always hardens his heart. Maybe there are some people who will never soften their hearts." And in that way, it began to look like what God was doing to draw Pharaoh to himself, was instead hardening his heart.

If Pharaoh had softened (well, this is like, "What if A&E had not sinned in the garden?), and had let the Israelites depart, there still could have been a Passover lamb -- the Israelites still would have needed food for the journey. The celebration would have been is praise to God, and the carry over to the NT would have been, "God provided a way out of Egypt, which we celebrate with a Lamb, to remind us of the Lamb of God which provides a way out of Sin." We would have lost nothing in our theology, and would have a powerful example of how God can work for good, even in the lives of hardened rulers.

(On the question of A&E, had they not sinned, we would not have Gen. 3:15, but also we wouldn't be fretting about the hate that naturists must endure :!: :D )
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Postby jochanaan » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:30 pm

LivingFree wrote:...(On the question of A&E, had they not sinned, we would not have Gen. 3:15, but also we wouldn't be fretting about the hate that naturists must endure :!: :D )

Indeed not! We'd ALL be naturists! :D
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Postby GulfCoast » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:25 pm

looking4light wrote:I've been wondering lately... why is it that men seem to grasp naturism with little or no hesitation, and women seem to respond, at least initially, like it's the end of chocolate?

Back to the question of why men have fewer problems with naturism than women seem to have, I believe that part of it is wrapped up in the natures of women and men (whether hard-wired or cultural, I don't know, but I believe the latter). I apologize for the generalities I'm about to describe; I know there are many exceptions.

Women have historically been dependent on men, so have developed tools to effect the results they desire. Women tend to be more cautious than men. They are very protective of financial security. Men, on the other hand, often have a "knock me down, I'll just get up again" attitude; so, they take risks and, if they fail, simply start over again. In this sense, men are more transparent than women. Women, to gain the advantage, often resort to subterfuge, to masks. One such tool/mask is sexuality: even in an "enlightened" age in which we live, how often do we see women resort to sexual displays to get what they want? Miss America is popular; where is Mr. America? Playboy is popular; when was the last time you saw Playgirl (perhaps it's still out there; I'm not even sure). The point is that women use nudity as sex to obtain their goals. In some sense, nudism is a threat to that tactic.

What does naturism strip us of? Masks, clothing behind which we hide. The transparency of men is more accepting of it, whereas the conservative/cautious approach of women depends on portraying the right image to achieve their goals.

Again, I know all of this is simplistic; but I think it's a rather practical -- if stereotypical -- approach to the problem.
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Postby LivingFree » Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:14 am

GulfCoast wrote:What does naturism strip us of? Masks, clothing behind which we hide. The transparency of men is more accepting of it, whereas the conservative/cautious approach of women depends on portraying the right image to achieve their goals.


Which brings us back full circle to the beginning. the coats of skins in Gen. 3 aside, archaeology and ancient literature shows that humans first used "strips of pretties" to decorate their bodies (body paint came before that). Then as they learned more about the art of clothing, men used it to keep other men away from "their" women, and women in turn used their clothing to entice men and proclaim their status in society. (This image is rampant in the Greek literature.) It seems as the human race matured, they became more vain and also more possessive. Which leads me to wonder if all the antagonism against simple nudity now isn't a mask of fear for losing the elaborate control and status symbols that have grown up around clothes.
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Postby Desert Hiker » Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:06 am

LivingFree wrote: It seems as the human race matured, they became more vain and also more possessive. Which leads me to wonder if all the antagonism against simple nudity now isn't a mask of fear for losing the elaborate control and status symbols that have grown up around clothes.


:jump: :bouncy: :bow: :biggrin: :angel1:>>BINGO!!!--Bulls Eye!!! Give that man a medal!!!
Peace In Christ, Sam

Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart...--Job
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Postby jochanaan » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:34 am

And what's even stranger is that the Church has bought into it. Whatever happened to: "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?" --Matthew 6:25
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Postby arom » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:28 am

I read this thread and it brought my own situation to mind. My wife is at ease with my nudity. So much so this summer that I wonder what brought on the change (in the past she asked, not demand, I wear shorts most of the time during daylight hours).

I have asked my wife to read articles from the Fig Leaf Forum and other places. I myself have used Scripture to discuss the subject with her, and while she understands simply nudity is not sinful, she herself will have nothing to do with it. She refuses to read anything on the subject. When I did bring up our visiting a Clothing Optional Park she reacted strongly. That is the farthest thing from the truth, I just want to go somewhere were I can enjoy my nudity without worrying about the doorbell ringing or my neighbor's looking over the fence.

Women have been brought up in a culture that defines their beauty on TV Ads and magazine covers. Women in general seem to think they are next good enough or pretty enough. So while my wife accepts my nudity and likely others, she refuses to be put in a situation where (in her perception) she might be compared with other women.

I covet prayer for God to smooth the walls in her mind and open it to the possibilities of good nudism for both of us. I know it is her free-will choice either way, but I also know that through prayer God can move anything.
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Postby arom » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:32 am

I make the same prayer request for Neal and anyone else in the situation I am regarding a reluctant spouse.

My the Lord's Will be done.
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Postby natman » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:56 am

Arom,

Has she read any of the articles you mentioned on Figleaf Forum? Have you taken her to the photo album on Naturist-Christians.org? Perhaps she may get a different impression of her own body if she is able to see that most every other woman does not have perfect bodies ("perfect" in the eyes of the world that is). However, as Christians, we know that our bodies, including our minds and our spirit, were made in the image of God and were declared "very good" and therefore "perfect" in God's eyes. This is all the more true once we are covered in the righteousness of Christ Jesus afforded by His death, burial and resurrection.

Has she ever endeavored to walk around the house naked when noone else is around besides you? Has she ever slept naked with you?

Prior to our marriage, my wife had never slept naked. Since our marriage, she may put on a nightgown initially on a cold night, but it usually comes off within ten minutes. She wouldn't have it any other way now. If she got up for any reason, she found it too cumbersome to put something on, only to take it off again, so why bother. Also, we get up early in the morning to make coffee and do our devotionals and Bible studies, usually on the back patio as the sun comes up. We both wait until the last minute to get our shower and get dressed. It is the most relaxing way to start out our day.

It sounds like your wife is softening on the issue of your nudity. She is in effect telling you "I know this is important to you and I love you." Tell her verbally everyday "I love you and I will never forsake you.", her number-one need, security. Tell her physically everyday "I love you" by listening carefully to what she has to say, her number-two need, communication, and by helping her "feather the nest", her number-three need, to nurture her household.

This is not a "give-to-get" scheme, but it sure produces blessings.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Postby Desert Hiker » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:18 pm

Arom, how is the rest of your family regarding nudity--do your kids go nude as well?

If the kids are nude at home also, she will more than likely, eventually be inclined to join in--as she will feel like the odd one out. Especially, if you are all happy, and relaxed when nude, and a little tense and reserved when you have to be dressed--this is not something you really need to exaggerate, it is a normal reaction of a naturist--we are just more relaxed and happy when we can be nude.

Our kids spend most of the time at home nude, by choice--as do both my wife, and I. neither of us have what anyone even pretends to be "perfect" bodies, but we simply have come to appreciate the simple joys of being comfortable in our skin around one another. We actively discourage the kids from making fun of others, or each other, based on appearances, or misfortunes--we remind them that we all are made in the image of the Lord, and are blessed by Him at His own pleasure.

Your wife may be struggling with a few ghosts of insecurity, and inadequacy--but eventually she will be set free.

We pray with you, and for you--that your wife be freed from these bonds, and that you all can experience true freedom in Christ--free from sin, shame and doubt.
Peace In Christ, Sam

Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart...--Job
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Postby arom » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:33 pm

Hmmm,

I did not intend to take the discussion away from Neal. It is just him and I share similar issues. I have show my wife the Fig Leaf Forum and even shown her some articles. That was almost five years ago and she had no interest then. I will talk to her later tonight after the kids go to bed.

I have three children, twin girls that are 3 and a half and a boy that is 5. My kids go skinny dipping in the baby pool and bath together, but normally they wear underwear/panties around the house. I am really unsure of my wife's general attitude about the times they do decide to be like daddy. She does not chid the for being naked, but will at some point encourage them to go get panties on.

Of course as I am sitting here, my three children have stripped and are running crazy though the house. My wife is at the store, it will be interesting when she gets home. This is the first time my kids have decided on their own to get naked own, and with my wife out of the house. She is going to be in for a surprise when she gets home.

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Postby Desert Hiker » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:23 pm

That is quite alright, I am sure Matt won't mind--as it all pertains to the same issue.

We have 2 young girls (6 & 8 ), and I know that kids have an instinctive insight into what is OK, and expected of them by the adults/ parents. They know it is OK with you, as you have set that example, and they obviously enjoy this freedom--as most kids naturally do. In fact, most kids, when given a choice at the ages you describe, would do just as you describe they have done--romp freely about naked.

They undoubtedly sense that mom is not entirely comfortable with it, and so are cautious to not make mom unhappy--but the verdict is in, they love being naked, and if they could, they would be naked as often, or more than you.

It sounds like you and the wife are due for a little sit down pow wow--to discuss the freedoms you are both OK with regarding your kids.

Since she, like most of us, was not raised in a home where nudity was allowed beyond the bathroom and bedrooms, it is going to be an uncomfortable thing for her to deal with--even if she agrees to not protest to their nudity, she will need encouragement, support, and coaching to not resort to her protective instinct to chide them into getting dressed--telling them to put undies on for no reason, for example.

It is a good thing for kids to be normalized towards nudity at home--it does not rob them of their innocence, and it promotes healthy attitudes regarding their bodies, and those of others. It will also reduce their curiosity about nudity, and sex, and better equip them to resist the advances of a pedophile--that fact alone should appeal to your wife's natural motherly instinct to protect them.

I hope it goes well.

keep us posted.
Peace In Christ, Sam

Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart...--Job
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Postby arom » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:08 am

Well my wife had no problem with her son greeting her naked at the door. By the time my wife returned one of my girls had decided to play dress-up and get out a party dress, but her brother and sister ate dinner naked with the family (as I do every night). I don't see a problem with the kids dressing or undressing as they see fit. My wife and I agree on that.

I talked to my wife a little and gave her the link to the "Fig Leaf Forum."

In the long run my one of my daughters remained nude until after her bath and the other was nude on and off until after her bath. My son was nude for the entire evening. All three of my kids put on their pajama's even though I keep the house warm in the summer. I'd expect my kids (unless we have guests) will start disrobing when daddy gets home from work. Over the next four months until my in-laws return I will let God work in this house and see how things progress.

In the past all three kids have attempted sleeping in the nude like daddy, and all three after two or three minutes have gotten up a little chilly and put something on. None of them, like me, like blankets.

My wife and I discussed this last night, she is ok with the way things are progressing. She intends to finally visit the "Fig Leaf Forum" and investigate my mind. I do not think she is against nudism as a way of life for some, but for her and her family the jury is still out.

Pray for me to communitcate with my wife, pray for my wife (and Neal's and all the rest) to understand the benefits of "good nudity" and pray God's Will is done.

Both the man and his wife were naked, yet felt no shame. (Gen 2:25 HCSB)
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