What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Are you new to this way of life? Does terminology confuse you? Have you heard lots of horror stories that frighten you? This is the place to ask questions about terminology, meanings of words, and more.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, natman, Senior Moderator, Moderators

What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:49 am

While creating a response to a post on this site at, http://cnvillage.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4931
I found that I was getting into a bit of a different topic and thought perhaps I ought to make a new strip rather than hijack the existing one, so here goes.
---------------------------------
Ramblinman wrote:....... My real-world naturist experience is mostly from a place that has no gender balance rules at all, and still manages to have pretty good gender balance and far more men and women under 40 than I see on naturist forums.
Perhaps you would be willing to share with us more about this "place" you refer to, because it seems to have overcome a lot of the concerns that many of us have about the future of naturism.

I think that, especially here at Christian Naturist Village, that the general drift of the culture will influence naturism in ways that are neither Christian or Family oriented directions if naturism persists.
-- Christian and Family Values components of society may become so textile-prudish as a reaction to libertine/hedonist drift in society as to leave no room for "Christian/family values Naturism"
or
-- what naturism remains will become so largely morally debauched that again there is no room for "Christian/family-values naturism".

I, for one, prefer to remain a "Biblically adherent Christian" while at the same time being a practicing naturist, without having what I and the bible regard as gross excesses of immorality surrounding me. While on my own private 20 acres, can do that, I still seek the social environment of like minded persons. Even now the intrusive government, acting in the name of civil rights and equal accommodation laws is eroding that social environment where it exists. With the advent of so called "Homosexual marriage", establishments are being challenged on "married couples only" rules that have protected them previously.

I do not favor Married Couples Only venues, but I understand their desire to have clearly defined rules to protect themselves. The problem of having a lawyer draft enforceable rules is only likely to result in such a complex mess as to be unworkable. As I told my students one day, "I practice sexual discrimination! when I was looking for a wife, I only considered women!" I also only considered
-- those of similar culture,
-- those of similar religious outlook, and
-- only those who spoke the same language.
Now obviously those are stated with respect to seeking a wife, and are not some sort of general cultural criteria for social interaction.

As a Christian, I do not think that Christianity can or should ever be imposed on anyone, (at best it would only make bad Christians and bring in heresy). I see naturism the same way. On the other hand I do not believe that things that are non-or-anti-christian should be imposed on Christian Naturists or Family Values naturists. I have seen decades ago a private club have its "private organization liquor license" withdrawn because it could not prove that it complied with local government social engineering.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2481
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Petros » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Those who differ and want to continue to differ - which group includes pretty much all of us here - need to bear in mind:

1. Power does not corrupt so much as it brings out the more corrupt parts of us.
2. Power pretty much can only be countered with alternative power [falling with your opponent's attack to throw him counts].
3. All power, including alternative power, attracts power seekers.
4. Successful power people attract bureaucrats.
5. Rulers and bureaucrats dislike, suspect, work to remove individualisms [ignore the diversity talking point.

ergo: while the world lasts, there will always be a controlling minority and an oppressed scapegoat minority.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5279
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby pipermac » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:29 pm

Evangelist or Ambassador?

As Christian Naturists, we have the opportunity, maybe even the obligation, to impact our culture and society postively for naturism. My question is "What is the best way to positively impact our culture and society for naturism?" I want to look at two very different models, the Evangelist, and the Ambassador.

We all have a pretty clear picture of an Evangelist. That person will proclaim their message any time the opportunity presents itself, even setting up a large tent, and advertising an evangelistic tent meeting, or going on TV. They have but one sole purpose - to gain converts to their "cause". A truly Christian evangelist can declare from the Bible "Thus says the Lord", but there are many others who use a guise of "Christianity" to further their own personal goals, including financial. However they are packaging it, their goal is to gain converts...people who haven't yet bought into their message and way of thinking.

We perhaps may have a somewhat less clear picture of an Ambassador. We are pretty much all aware that nations send Ambassadors to other nations to REPRESENT their sending nation. They are not Evangelists, in that their purpose is not to convert the other nation into what they are. Our Ambassador to France doesn't convert the French into being Americans, or visa-versa. I believe the model is more of being bridge-builders - building understand between nations, societies and cultures. The better we understand each other, the easier it is to act cooperatively, and the less friction there is.

I believe the "Ambassador" model is the one that best fits our situation, as Christian Naturists, who are highly-misunderstood by our society and culture, and particularly by our churches. Most, if not all of us have struggled with "coming-out" as Christian Naturists. Perhaps we have "come-out" to one part of our social circle, but are still "closet-naturists" to the rest. For me, "coming-out" to my mom was comparatively easy. I am still quite hesitant to "come-out" to my church family. I do have an AANR bumper-sticker on my vehicle. On the flip-side, I can't post nude pictures on Facebook. However I can and do re-post items from the various nudist groups I belong to on FB. Either my FB friends are not noticing those posts, or they are ignoring them, because they already know I have quite a few screws loose or missing. My point is that I am really not in a position where I can make new converts to naturism, but I can represent Christian Naturism in a positive light to anyone who inquires. I seek understanding and tolerance. If I gain a few "converts" along the way, that is a bonus.

What is to become of Christian Naturism?

That really depends on whether we are willing to continue with the status-quo, forced to huddle in our own little caves, go once in a while to a nudist venue, and hope we don't lose any more ground, or whether we are willing to be Ambassadors for Christian Naturism. Only if we are truly willing to be Ambassadors for Christian Naturism, living our lives as Christ would have us do, and glorifying our Father who is in heaven, by agreeing with Him that what He created - our bodies - are indeed "very good", do we have any chance in gaining ground. If we huddle, we lose. A select few may be gifted, and in a position to be Evangelists, but we can all be Ambassadors. Naturism will survive with or without us, but the future of Christian Naturism is in our hands. May God give us grace and wisdom to be good Ambassadors for His naturist kingdom.

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!


Steve :cross:
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 1:14
User avatar
pipermac
Native Resident
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Davenport, Florida

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby jochanaan » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:35 pm

pipermac, I like your model of "Ambassador"! But to be an ambassador, one must be recognized as coming from a legitimate country or entity. I'm not sure most of Christianity is willing to allow us that status. Yet I too am unhappy with the status quo in which we are forced into virtual catacombs of privacy...
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby pipermac » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:45 pm

jochanaan wrote:pipermac, I like your model of "Ambassador"! But to be an ambassador, one must be recognized as coming from a legitimate country or entity. I'm not sure most of Christianity is willing to allow us that status. Yet I too am unhappy with the status quo in which we are forced into virtual catacombs of privacy...


If we allow the church to be the determiner of the validity of our "credentials", we are allowing the church to continue to hold their collective thumbs on us. That is granting them the authority to establish and enforce the status-quo. Our authority must come from "higher up"...the Bible.

All believers are commissioned by Christ to be ambassadors for His kingdom. We need not get, nor will we ever have, the approval of the world as His ambassadors. Christ is the commissioning agent for believers. Our responsibility, as believers, is to proclaim the truth of Scripture, regardless of whether our listeners believe it or hold it to be authoritative. The world doesn't validate our message. Scripture does, and the Holy Spirit is the power behind the message.

I believe that we, as Christian Naturists, are called to proclaim the truth of Scripture...the WHOLE counsel of God, including the "naked parts". If our message is true, it will be amply backed-up with Scripture. Careful explanation of Scripture is what will disarm our nay-sayers. With Scripture as our bulwark, we need not fear that our message lacks authority.

When I "came-out" as a Christian Naturist to my mom, it was showing her the "naked-truth" from Scripture that disarmed her objections. It certainly wasn't my "smooth-talking", bcause I couldn't sell ice in the Sahara desert. Even though she didn't accept my lifestyle choice for herself, which I didn't expect her to do, she did come to a solid understanding of why I have chosen to be a naturist. Dealing with her objections has helped me to be better-prepared the next time someone objects. Mom is a believer, so she does accept and recognize the authority of Scripture.

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!

Steve
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 1:14
User avatar
pipermac
Native Resident
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Davenport, Florida

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Petros » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:27 am

"Careful explanation of Scripture is what will disarm our nay-sayers."

This is where the didymist pessimist part of me [a large and lumpy part] rises up and begins its dance.

Experience suggests that only by miracle - not by reasonable and clear exegesis - will those people [and they are legion] who do not see the dicta of the scriptures as any big deal and those people [another legion] who are not ready to entertain any reading of scripture that is not already in their files be swayed.

Surely I do not rule out the possibility of miracle. But [to personalize this] my sister Diana would I expect react to an openly naturist declaration much as she did to my openly Christian declaration [whatever, I am glad for you, follow your bliss]; my brother Steve would certainly react to an openly naturist declaration just as he did to my openly Christian declaration [you are mad and dangerous], and my mother were she still on hand, she who was pleased at my Christian declaration till it became clear I was not going to join her church, would disapprove and agree that I am losing it [though she would not have felit it a threat].
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5279
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby JimShedd112 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:04 am

While I am not and have never proclaimed to be a Christian, or of any other religion, I agree very much with what pipermac has said about being an ambassador for Christian naturism. If everyone continues to hide behind clothing, walls, etc except with a select group of like-minded individuals, naturists/nudists will always be seen as weird and less than wholesome citizens of the community.

Many of us are accepted as a part of the larger community because our families and friends don't know about our hidden side and far too many among us are afraid to speak out about who we really are. There's the fear of job loss, ostracization from family and society, etc. I for one do speak out, on a limited basis, to let others know I am a nudist and proud of it. And, to date, I've not lost any friend, family member, or even my job (yes, my employer knows I'm a nudist since I told the CEO in a letter suggesting the corporation enter the market on a trial basis as I'm employed in the entertainment industry).

I think far too many have an irrational fear of being thought of as weird or "less than wholesome" by society at large if they tell others they are nudist/naturists.

Jim Shedd
Jim Shedd
NudistGrandpa
User avatar
JimShedd112
Native Resident
 
Posts: 1767
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:44 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:31 pm

JimShedd112 wrote:... I think far too many have an irrational fear of being thought of as weird or "less than wholesome" by society at large if they tell others they are nudist/naturists.
I am wondering about a distinction in terms here
-- Irrational fear ?
-- unjustified fear ?
-- justified fear ?
-- rational fear ?

A fear in these categories may be justified or rational or not. There is also the matter of risk, specifically just how much is at risk. and how we assess that risk. If for instance we have a good job but our boss is a deacon in our church, and very much in the public eye. There is not only the matter of exactly how he might feel about the matter but also what the reaction of the congregation might be should they find out that he employs "one of those Nudist People". Compare that say to the risk of telling my dermatologist at a remote medical center that my darker than average complexion is actually due to going totally nude at every opportunity year round that my lifestyle allows.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2481
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:03 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
JimShedd112 wrote:... I think far too many have an irrational fear of being thought of as weird or "less than wholesome" by society at large if they tell others they are nudist/naturists.
I am wondering about a distinction in terms here
-- Irrational fear ?
-- unjustified fear ?
-- justified fear ?
-- rational fear ?

A fear in these categories may be justified or rational or not. There is also the matter of risk, specifically just how much is at risk. and how we assess that risk. If for instance we have a good job but our boss is a deacon in our church, and very much in the public eye. There is not only the matter of exactly how he might feel about the matter but also what the reaction of the congregation might be should they find out that he employs "one of those Nudist People". Compare that say to the risk of telling my dermatologist at a remote medical center that my darker than average complexion is actually due to going totally nude at every opportunity year round that my lifestyle allows.


We've talked about the perception that "nude == sex" and that is sometimes justified (see Cap D'age, Mazo or San Onofre issues).
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
User avatar
bn2bnude
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:09 am
Location: Denver

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:16 pm

bn2bnude wrote:We've talked about the perception that "nude = sex" and that is sometimes justified (see Cap D'age, Mazo or San Onofre issues).
Viewing it differently:
-- Nude <> sex
but rather
-- there are those who confuse it in their mind and having found a nude venue choose to exploit it for sex.

But as I think we all know nude is not equal to sex, although some degree of nudity greatly facilitates sex. Sex could be accomplished fully clothed but the zippers would likely pose a hazard to tender skin and hair :shock: .
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2481
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby pipermac » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:35 pm

I believe we are dealing with a far deeper issue than merely the church's views that "nude is lewd" or "nude=sex". Those views are the tip of a far-bigger problem...the church's decidedly un-Biblical views of sex and sexuality. Because we, as Christian Naturists, have a much more balanced and Biblical view of sex and sexuality, we are fundamentally at odds with the church.

What the church fails to comprehend is that the same God who said "Thou shalt no commit adultery" also created mankind in His image, male and female, and has commanded couples to "Be fruitful and multiply". This very same God also inspired King Solomon to pen that beautiful and erotic love story we know as the Song of Solomon, or Song of Songs. God is the creator of sexuality and the author of sex, and God has never left sex as an "optional-activity". In trying to quell the rampant hyper-sexuality and excesses of our culture, the church has thrown out what God created and called "very good". What happened to "proclaiming the whole counsel of God"? Is the church in this era free to pick and choose what they will and what they won't proclaim? I don't believe that God is honored by that kind of selective-proclamation of His Word. When was the last time you heard, at the end of a wedding, the bride and groom being exhorted to go home and "be fruitful and multiply"? It is simply assumed that they will...

We, as Christian Naturists, have a very fundamentally-different point of view. We acknowledge by our words and actions that we are created in His image, and every part of us is, in His words, "very good". We are agreeing with God's assessment of His creation by not covering up what He created. We celebrate our sexuality by not covering up, or being embarrassed by, or ashamed of those parts of us that make us distinctly male or female. If the whole is "very good", then those parts are also. Furthermore, we should have a thoroughly-Biblical "Theology of sex". I am not going to try to develop that in this thread.

Brothers - we have a huge job ahead of us, if we want to enjoy being an accepted-part of the Christian community. If we fail, we may be stuck with having to stay in our respective closets, constantly fearing that "the wrong person" will find out that we are naturists - Christian Naturists. Is failure an acceptable option?

I am naked and unashamed in Christ!

Steve :cross:
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1, 1:14
User avatar
pipermac
Native Resident
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Davenport, Florida

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:39 pm

pipermac wrote:I believe we are dealing with a far deeper issue than merely the church's views that "nude is lewd" or "nude=sex". Those views are the tip of a far-bigger problem...the church's decidedly un-Biblical views of sex and sexuality. Because we, as Christian Naturists, have a much more balanced and Biblical view of sex and sexuality, we are fundamentally at odds with the church.
I am of the opinion that the words "sex" and "sexuality" are such loaded words in our culture that I am not sure exactly what they mean in this context.

Dictionary .com offers the following relevent noun usages at the urls respectively
sex
noun [1]
1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.
2.the sum of the structural and functional differences by which the male and female are distinguished, or the phenomena or behavior dependent on these differences.
3.the instinct or attraction drawing one sex toward another, or its manifestation in life and conduct.
4.coitus.
--------------------------------------------
sexuality[2]
noun
1.sexual character; possession of the structural and functional traits of sex.
2.recognition of or emphasis upon sexual matters.
3.involvement in sexual activity.
4.an organism's preparedness for engaging in sexual activity.


When you said "Biblical View of Sex and sexuallity, did you mean the "Biblically approved use and comportment" of sex and sexuality?

The Bible does provide us with examples of both approved and unapproved uses of sex and sexuality The problem with the churches and society at large, is that they seem to not distinctly understand the difference. They allow the abhorrence of the misuses to taint the proper uses. Then because, sex pretty much requires a degree of nudity as a practical matter, they spread that taint over non-sexual nudity as well.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sex?s=t
[2] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sexuality?s=t
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2481
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Petros » Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:49 am

For what it may be worth - careful attention where I have had access convinces me that ALL have items and areas where they feel it is better to draw the curtain. It may be my taste for Spam, or my colleague's disagreement with the department head's ideas, or Mother Teresa's personal views on certain church policies, or the fine hair on Wee Coryl's back, or Christianity, or nudism, or not owning a TV.

Not all such official secrets are all that abnormal, many are more virtues than vices [the jock who prefers not to discuss his virginity with his teammates].

But I think everybody reasonably wholew - even some you would think maximally outgoing - has them.

And in many cases, revealing them the wrong way to the wrong person WOULD change a relationship.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5279
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby jasenj1 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:42 am

(I'm on my iPhone so this post will not be edited much.)

Oh boy, a little end of year introspection and speculation. Count me in!

What is to become of "Christian naturism"? Or Christians who are naturists?

To the first question, I think Christian naturism will continue to be a fringe facet of Christianity. My hope is that Christian naturists can find each other (online and in real life) for support and edification. Hopefully a few websites will emerge as central hubs for information and discussion of Christian naturism. This forum is the only true forum I know of - Fig Leaf Forum has some discussion but it is... weird and awkward to me. Many nudist forums have religion sub-forums and some even have Christian ones. It would be nice if those places had participants aware of CNV and able to point people here for in depth discussion and support.

Matthew Neal's "The Biblical Naturist" blog is the best exegesis and apologetic web site I've found for Christian naturism. Fig Leaf Forum has a lot of good stuff, too, from various sources. The web and search engines make it very easy to find information on Christian naturism; some effort should be made to ensure that "good" sites appear at the top of search results.

I really like the ambassador vs evangelist comparison. I definitely put myself in the ambassador camp. I think Christian naturists also need to be ambassadors of Christ to nudism.

As to the question of what is to become of Christian naturists, I believe we will continue to be a persecuted minority within the Church - especially in the USA. With our nation's embrace of homosexuality (and soon polygamy), the battle lines surrounding sexual conduct will be even more divisive. Social nudity is perceived as sexual liberty and will continue to be condemned by "conservative" Christians. I would love for the message that nudity=sex perverts God's design for the human body to gain traction, but I think it will remain too subtle and misunderstood. Christian naturists will have to remain very discreet to avoid ostracism.

I plan to stay on this forum encouraging and prayerfully offering wise counsel to those who find CNV.

- Jasen.
jasenj1
Native Resident
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:42 pm

Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby jasenj1 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:05 am

pipermac wrote:However I can and do re-post items from the various nudist groups I belong to on FB. Either my FB friends are not noticing those posts, or they are ignoring them, because they already know I have quite a few screws loose or missing.



I had an interesting experience related to this recently. I commented on a posting on TNS's FB page. That I'd commented popped up in my wife's newsfeed. I did not know that others would be notified that I'd commented on another page! This sent me into a panic! I quickly deleted the comment lest one of my church friends also receive the notification and events snowball for the worst! But that I'd commented was not removed from my wife's newsfeed, but the comment was gone.

I've since stopped checking TNS and AANR's FB pages.

My wife was VERY unhappy - but that's a topic for a different strip.

- Jasen.
jasenj1
Native Resident
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:42 pm

Next

Return to What is nudism / naturism?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron