What is to become of Christian Naturism.

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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:28 pm

I would like to see a few well-placed advocates for Christian Naturism at seminaries!

Can you imagine the young minds that would be at least forced to think about the issue?
Probably a tenured professor so he could not be shoved aside because of "inconvenient truth".
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby pipermac » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:36 pm

jochanaan wrote:
Petros wrote:Arguably, the Church might be more accepting were Christians and naturists both "under cover" [pun intended]. As things are, as long as the church as institution is accepted, the ones who delight in running institutions - who by their nature dislike deviation - WILL run the church.
Hmmm...Perhaps there is a model for revival here among us Christian naturists. We mostly do not like authorities telling us how to live, especially when they tell us we can't be nude. We are neither an institution nor a hierarchy nor a "staff-command" model; we are a network of independent thinkers who happen to agree on these few points and respect the thoughts, words and deeds of others. We have no infrastructure to speak of (this forum hardly counts!); what binds us is the mutual love of Jesus and His creation, the naked human body. Our rules are few and flexible, based mostly on the Bible and common sense, subject to the guiding Holy Spirit. And there is a warmth and acceptance here that few others know.

Perhaps, instead of a revival of institutions, we will see a growth in both numbers, visibility in the churches, and mutual character.


Perhaps what we view as our greatest strength...a loose fellowship of like-minded individuals, is in fact our greatest weakness, when it comes to gaining acceptance in the church. While naturists, in general, have AANR and TNS to represent us to society as a whole, and our governing bodies, we have no unified voice. This forum has, by necessity, a certain level of leadership to maintain purity and order. We even have a Sheriff, although I have yet to see him with his radar gun our writing tickets, and I haven't figured out where he would pin his badge, if he had one to pin on.

"Membership" seems to be a highly-prized commodity in most churches. Many churches have elaborate membership procedures, some that take months to go through. Been there, done that. I have yet to figure out what the true "advantage" of church membership is, other than the privilege of voting at a congregational meeting. I mentioned church membership to our senior pastor several months ago, and he said we would talk about it in the fall, which hasn't happened. I suppose he was planning to hold a "membership class", which didn't happen. I have quit counting the number of "membership classes" I have taken, and I am certainly not interested in another. I used to be an elder in a church in the same denomination, so it isn't like I an a total-newcomer.

For us, "membership qualifications" are 1) Alive and breathing. 2) Being a Christian. 3) Being a naturist. That is just about as simple as it gets.

What if there was a "Christian Naturists Association", with representatives who were able to go to the various grand meetings of church denominations, and present our case in an official manner. I am not proposing that we necessarily establish such an organization. I love our fellowship, and the Brothers and Sisters that are a part of it, but I am grieved that we are viewed as a "fringe-element" in the Church of Jesus Christ. Would a certain level of "organization" gain us a greater voice, and quicker acceptance?

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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby jochanaan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:47 pm

pipermac wrote:...What if there was a "Christian Naturists Association"...
Christian Nudist Convocation :)
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby jasenj1 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:47 pm

I'd like to see some activity and leadership from Europe. Maybe a German professor/theologian/evangelist could rise up who shares that region's body acceptance. The USA tends to be very insular and ignore what the rest of the world is doing & thinking, but maybe a prominent pastor from over there could/would visit the USA and call us out for our pornographic treatment of the human body.

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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:16 pm

bn2bnude wrote:...... While I understand why you might say that, I'd have to argue that it is not necessarily the case.

First, we've not had any true persecution of Christians as a whole in this country. Not until they start locking us away for our beliefs will that be the case. No, I don't consider Phil being suspended from Duck Dynasty persecution. Certainly there are pockets and individual cases, like the bakeries who've refused to make wedding cakes for same sex marriages and have been punished by the courts.
...
Having felt the sting of persecution personally, I must heartily disagree with you. I have had my employment threatened by the dean. of my college. One time when neither I nor my colleague had to be present on campus let alone in our offices during "year-end-break" I and my Muslim colleague were engaging in an impromptu comparative religion discussion in my colleague's office when the dean walked by the open door. He stepped in and in a very threatening tone of voice said "You can't discuss that here. I certainly hope you aren't talking about that in class" and a few other lesser comments. The pall this cast over my work for the next week or so was heavy.

A few weeks later it was time for my performance appraisal. In the appraisal he did not mention it, so when at the end it was my turn, I brought the matter up. Fairly early in my presentation I informed him that I had contacted a lawyer over the matter [1] and that the lawyer said that I was on solid ground. The dean was a bit subdued by the news.

I went on to inform him that his outburst had been far more devastating to my Muslim Colleague (an Egyptian who did not want to be forced to return there for lack of employment). I explained that my concern for the impact on that professor was greater than for myself as I understood the terms of my employment better, but that he (the dean) needed to to mend that fence lest we lose the Muslim professor. The dean thanked me for filling him in on that (The other professor was much more important to the Dean's pet research project ). This maneuver gave me a gentle exit seeing as how I had just helped the dean while letting him know I was not going out without a fight.

Fortunately that dean retired not too long after, which alleviated that problem for me. However:
-- Is it oppression? Yes!
-- Is it equivalent to getting thrown in jail? Not yet!
But it is heading in that direction. Yes! Consider:
-- the baker who would not make a homosexual wedding cake,
-- several years ago the forcing of E-Harmony dating site being forced to make a homosexual version of their site,
-- Obamacare forcing the catholic church to pay for contraceptive/abortions under a smoke and mirrors ruse,
-- Obamacare forcing Hobby Lobby to pay for abortion inducing drugs for their employees.
-- Forcing a mom & pop resort to rent their "married couples only" facilities rooms to a homosexual couple,
-- etc.

Yes there is oppression for Christians. It is small scale so far but I fully expect to see that change.

If you review the Phil Robertson interview by Duck Dynasty:
-- 1st, He was asked what he considered sin, and he told them, but pronounced no condemnation on anyone
-- 2nd, His account of his experience growing up and working with black farm workers was all the more credible since as he said he was "White Trash", and was relating his experience in an uncondemning manner. And he cited factors that are present today that he feels are working in negative ways for people's happiness.
My take on that whole thing is that the man "committed truth" and expressed an opinion, but it was not politically correct at least in part because of his religion and the misunderstanding of it and the animus toward it.

An important difference in the case is that the government was not a player in the matter, however it is the politically correct attitude that supports the government in such matters, which is how we get "Hate Crime" laws.

Oppression comes on by degrees [2] except in militarily conquered countries. What we are seeing now is the first stages of the introduction of oppression.

[1] The lawyer I contacted in the matter was Jay Seculow, who subsequently had me come on his radio show to discuss the matter via phone. He considered it a prime example of anti-religious bias.

[2] Please note that I am referring to the development of oppression where it did not exist before. I suppose that if I were crazy enough to move to certain muslim countries, my religious practice would be oppressed but that is a different case.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:36 pm

jochanaan wrote:
pipermac wrote:...What if there was a "Christian Naturists Association"...
Christian Nudist Convocation :)


Oh, really, and here all along I just though that CNC was just another website with lots of fourms and somehow sponsored regional meetings for Christian naturists. So acting on the above post I went to that web site and after looking for a bit realized that I could not find an
-- "About Us",
-- or "What is Christian Naturist Convocation",
-- or What CNC is all about,
-- or "What We Do"
-- or "Qualifications for Membership" Are Mormon's ok, Do you have to be R.C., Do you have to handle snakes :shock: ,
-- or Do I have to be a dues paying member,
-- or "Our Outreach/Advocacy"
Or basically anything telling me what the organization is all about.

Of course the fact that the board does not work quite the same as other Boards I am familiar with did not make things any smoother. So I don't really know if my search was thoroughly effective or if I missed a whole lot.

So is there anyone (hopefully a CNC official who can authoritatively) tell me what CNC is all about???
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:42 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
jochanaan wrote:
pipermac wrote:...What if there was a "Christian Naturists Association"...
Christian Nudist Convocation :)


Oh, really, and here all along I just though that CNC was just another website with lots of fourms and somehow sponsored regional meetings for Christian naturists. So acting on the above post I went to that web site and after looking for a bit realized that I could not find an
-- "About Us",
-- or "What is Christian Naturist Convocation",
-- or What CNC is all about,
-- or "What We Do"
-- or "Qualifications for Membership" Are Mormon's ok, Do you have to be R.C., Do you have to handle snakes :shock: ,
-- or Do I have to be a dues paying member,
-- or "Our Outreach/Advocacy"
Or basically anything telling me what the organization is all about.

Of course the fact that the board does not work quite the same as other Boards I am familiar with did not make things any smoother. So I don't really know if my search was thoroughly effective or if I missed a whole lot.

So is there anyone (hopefully a CNC official who can authoritatively) tell me what CNC is all about???


Try this page instead.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:57 am

Bare_Truth wrote:Yes there is oppression for Christians. It is small scale so far but I fully expect to see that change.

If you review the Phil Robertson interview by Duck Dynasty:
-- 1st, He was asked what he considered sin, and he told them, but pronounced no condemnation on anyone
-- 2nd, His account of his experience growing up and working with black farm workers was all the more credible since as he said he was "White Trash", and was relating his experience in an uncondemning manner. And he cited factors that are present today that he feels are working in negative ways for people's happiness.
My take on that whole thing is that the man "committed truth" and expressed an opinion, but it was not politically correct at least in part because of his religion and the misunderstanding of it and the animus toward it.

I'm sorry to hear about the incident but....
I suspect I'm a minority here but I've not seen anywhere in the Bible that Jesus promised a trouble free life. In fact, I believe, it was quite the opposite. We may have been granted a time of freedom to proclaim the Gospel but I often wonder about the cost.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Petros » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:34 am

Ramblinman wrote:I would like to see a few well-placed advocates for Christian Naturism at seminaries!

Can you imagine the young minds that would be at least forced to think about the issue?

Probably a tenured professor so he could not be shoved aside because of "inconvenient truth".



Ach du lieber! PERHAPS it is different in seminaries [he said tryng not to choke on his uncontrollable laughter] or at least in SOME seminaries [just not the opnes of which I have heard first hand reports]. But ask me sometime about what can happen in an institution violently opposed to censorship and a mighty supporter of academic freedom if an tenured professor starts even hinting at uncongenial opinions. There I can give you a first hand repor!
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Petros » Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:44 am

jochanaan [and others, am not ignoring, juist not listing] - I think your point raised somed steps back ["Hmmm...Perhaps there is a model for revival here among us Christian naturists..."] neatly explains why there is less bickering under persecution. Meeting in the catacombs, the scriptures buried in the back yard, drawing fish in the sand does not provide a good soil for the growth of hierarchies and bureaucracies and the whetting of doctrinal hatchets. It is after the persecution is over that we start arguing about whether the communion wine has to be Mogen David [my brother in his early childhood liked that] or is Gallo okay.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:10 am

bn2bnude wrote: ....
I suspect I'm a minority here but I've not seen anywhere in the Bible that Jesus promised a trouble free life. In fact, I believe, it was quite the opposite. We may have been granted a time of freedom to proclaim the Gospel but I often wonder about the cost.
I doubt very much that you are a minority, the scriptures in the link you gave are I think familiar to most of us. But the frequent smaller hostilities are as much if not more problematic to the ones that God has called and the mission we are called to. It is a weapon of Satan to get us to "circle the wagons" and withdraw and it is an effective weapon against some to get them to abandon the command to "Go ye therefore into all the world". It is necessary to call these little persecutions exactly what they are. Until he is ready for a massive frontal attack Satan will continue to inspire these smaller cases as a way to try to weaken our resolve. By recognizing these small attacks for what they are and supporting those who suffer them we increase our resolve individually and as a body to remain faithful.

This point is I believe relevant to the topic of "What is to Become of Christian Naturism". What the world does not like but finds hard to suppress outright, it tries to make ever more inconvenient to its practitioners. That which is not secular is made more difficult and inconvenient. Witness the troubles and fights that have been to have Bible clubs, or prayer meeting at the flagpole and the court fights required to keep Christianity functional in our education facilities. Look at the suppression of religious slogans on T shirts and religious symbols in jewlery in spite of freedom of expression law.

ezduzit's comment is relevant to this issue:
ezduzit wrote:Given the political climate we live in I suspect it will become naturism without Christ .
The prime mechanism for the world to achieve this end will be the suppression of Christianity by making it inconvenient and superfluous to naturism by a myriad of minor persecutions. I agree that we "have not yet resisted unto blood" in these persecutions but they are none the less important to overcome.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Petros » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:48 am

Periodically the tree needs to be shaken to knock off what will fall off.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:01 pm

While I applaud the idea of an advocacy group to take the naturist message to the major churches, at least in the United States the forces of religious prudishness have taken such a heavy toll on individual naturist parishioners that the various Christian naturist groups have served primarily as battlefield medics in the aftermath of a crushing defeat.

We have also tried to reach out to secular naturists individually and collectively to show that not all Christians are the enemy of family naturism. Enlightened self-interest will teach them that there needs to be a movement to bring naturist elements back into Christian thinking. What we call naturism as a philosophy was in many respects part of the culture of Christians in many parts of the Roman world. Nude baptisms, nudity in church art, nude recreation at Roman baths, and nude rural bathers through centuries of post-Roman Europe all indicate a very, very different attitude. And this attitude of tolerance toward times of nudity in everyday life was at least initially NOT opposed by the bishops and other early church fathers.

So we are simply trying to restore the concept of "Imago Dei", and other facets of the concept of good nudity back to its rightful place in historic Christianity.

There are indeed already effective communicators for our cause online, some with highly advanced theological training. Perhaps our movement can take an even more active role in apologetics (in the theological sense of the word).

Maybe it should begin with someone like the late Francis Schaeffer. Such a gadfly would not be immune to criticism by the prudes, but could not be so easily dismissed.

Would it be easier for a European theologian, maybe even in Britain than in the United States?
I would think so.

We should concurrently see a grass-roots movement of young Christians actively and unashamedly living both a Christian and naturist life. The Internet has facilitated such free discourse. Before it came out, the dissemination of doctrine more hierarchical.

I remember an old Gary Trudeau cartoon about a room full of college students all dutifully taking down every nugget of "truth" dictated by the professor in the podium.

To see if they had disengaged their minds entirely, the professor began deliberately injected progressively more absurd comments into his lecture, but sadly the students continued taking notes as if every word were gospel.

Finally one student remarked to the other, "This class is getting very interesting isn't it!"

Sadly we have far too much of this unquestioning dutiful congregant in our churches.
Things need to change and not just for the sake of advancing Christian naturism alone.
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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby jasenj1 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:03 am

jochanaan wrote:
pipermac wrote:...What if there was a "Christian Naturists Association"...
Christian Nudist Convocation :)



So I went over to the CNC site. Not bad. Pretty good. It has a forum - nice. But the forum is all about CNC meetings/gatherings, there's no general discussion section for the members. *sigh* Looking through their links is Boyd Allen's Christian Naturism. Well, Boyd is the head of CNC; why does he have/need another site of his own? The BACN site has several articles on Christian naturism and... a link to a forum! which has the tag line "This is a discussion and Study of Christianity and Naturism", and that forum has links back to CNC! And there's discussions about CNC (posted by Boyd) on this forum.

But wait, there's more.

The CNC site also has a link to Boyd's Blogspot blog. And links to Fig Leaf Forum and CNVillage.

So there's CNC, BACN, and a blog all run by Boyd! At least two forums covering CNC information, and pointers to the CNVillage, FLF, and somewhere called The Naked Truth Naturists which looks to be a lot like FLF! :argh:

Now, people certainly have the right to create their own thing. But how hard is it to join alongside someone else's ministry and help make it better rather than striking out on your own?! Does this plethora of overlapping sites indicate vibrancy and health in Christian naturism? Or just point to a bunch of people who can't work together?

If I were a person interested in Christian nudism, I think I'd be overwhelmed and confused by all these different sites. Which ones are reliable? Why are there so many that point to each other and do mostly the same thing?

/rant off.

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Re: What is to become of Christian Naturism.

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:21 am

There are several of us here who have a longer history with CNC.

First, Boyd is the second "leader" of the group and has actually expanded it. When this venture started, events were at one resort on the east coast. It's now been expanded to an even in the east and a separately run event more in the midwest. There may actually be a Texas group as well, I don't remember.

Each event has it's own core leadership group but the even revolves around the same topic.

Second, I believe it's actually a wise thing that Boyd keep the organization and his personal sites separate. What if the reigns were handed off to someone else for example.

I don't know if Boyd monitors here anymore but he has in the past. There are others on this forum that are directly (I am indirectly) involved in his life.
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