Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

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Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby Sasqwatch » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:10 am

My wife and I have been venturing into naturism and have been enjoying the journey. Without going into too lengthy of detail about how this occurred, suffice to say that we've begun to spend most of our time at home in the nude. We have also, on a few occasions, had the opportunity to be nude in a social setting with some of our married friends. I got into a discussion last night with one of my friend's wives, that we've been nude with, about Chrisian naturism. She said that she does not see a problem with it, but one of her hang ups was that part of her feels that a person's body should only be viewed by their spouse. While I believe that the body is neutral, neither sexual or unsexual in it's natural setting, I believe that the body can be viewed in either way based on context. Meaning, I belived that a man can view his wife in a sexual manner, and she can present herself sexually, for a specific purpose within the confines of marriage. At the same time, the same woman, or man, can be nude in a social setting without the issue of sexuality emerging. In a nut shell, the body can be presented and viewed in any way based on the intentions of all parties involved. We had just sat down to watch a movie and we did not get to finish the discussion. What are your thoughts? What is the best answer to someone that does not see a problem with nudity in a social setting, but at the same time, has reservations about it? For clarification, we've been nude with her and her husband only once. I've been nude in front of both of them on a canoe trip, but socially we've all been nude together just once. She was completely comforatble and we were all nude for several hours at their house, but now she seems to be second guessing herself in that area. Thoughts?
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:56 am

I answered you over on the NC site. :)
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby Sasqwatch » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:10 pm

I posted it on both because I didn't know how many people were members of both. Thought I would be able to get more points of view from both sites.
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:47 pm

No worries.... I can't copy/paste to this site so easily...
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby jochanaan » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:00 pm

I have found that, with many women (and many men too; we just don't admit it so easily), you can present the most logical argument and they'll still say "It doesn't feel right!" So you have to speak, not to their minds, but to their hearts. And it still seems easy even for some of us experienced types to forget "That...which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled..." (I John 1:1) and fall back into "worldly" thinking about nudity. I've found that the best cure for such thinking is regular experience with the reality that mutual nakedness is good, innocent and holy. 8)
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:37 pm

jochanaan wrote:I have found that, with many women (and many men too; we just don't admit it so easily), you can present the most logical argument and they'll still say "It doesn't feel right!" So you have to speak, not to their minds, but to their hearts. And it still seems easy even for some of us experienced types to forget "That...which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled..." (I John 1:1) and fall back into "worldly" thinking about nudity. I've found that the best cure for such thinking is regular experience with the reality that mutual nakedness is good, innocent and holy. 8)


Jochanaan, you make a good point, many of us use intuitive thought to help guide us through our day. We often call this method "feelings", but it is simply a different way our mind processes information to supplement pure linear deductive reasoning (logic).

Obviously we can't live our life by "gut feel" alone. Otherwise, we would say that the sun orbits the Earth because that's "the way it feels". Some things in life are counter-intuitive.

But I know of several instances where people were convinced of the rightness of nude recreation and nude living by simply stumbling upon it it and seeing that all the rumors and crude jokes were wrong, that it is a wonderful way for families to live.

As you suggested, in this woman's case, she may simply need a few more additional visits to a nudist venue to overcome past bad conditioning about nudity and increase her comfort level with her own skin.
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby fatpizzaman1 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:27 am

What about nudity being seen in places like the locker room after a sports game, or the doctor's office when going for a check-up or operation, or if you're in a massage clinic or one of the saunas in Germany and Holland?


It's mostly Americans and Middle-Eastern people who have such hang-ups, not so much people in other countries. Also, women have the 'sixth sense' and are more perceptive with following their gut instincts. If it's not "right" for them, don't push the matter. Leave them to their own thoughts.
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:18 am

fatpizzaman1 wrote:Also, women have the 'sixth sense' and are more perceptive with following their gut instincts. If it's not "right" for them, don't push the matter. Leave them to their own thoughts.


That sounds a little extreme, to totally avoid discussion. In general, we should encourage (not push) our friends and family to question their assumptions and expand their horizons.


If you are talking about a woman who has body image issues or for whom clothing is a security blanket against lecherous glances, then granted, it is not a simple matter of sitting down at the kitchen table to discuss it. In these cases, she will need years of therapy to make any progress at all. Naturist forums are filled with men who come online to air their frustration with wives who have been traumatized by a perverse upbringing. If you are such a husband, you have a lifetime of tough love and patience ahead of you and very little prospect of participating in naturism.

There is another problem in our congregations that seems to afflict men and women fairly equally. It could be called spiritual laziness. Interpreting the Bible and determining morality based solely upon what your parents taught you, and never questioning what the preacher says. Jesus warned against the blind leading the blind and it still happens today.

We need a new generation of pastors, evangelists and Bible teachers who force people to cultivate their own powers of discernment. I don't mean this in some ethereal sense. We are talking about teaching solid Bible study skills rather than spoon-feeding them doctrine and demanding unquestioning obedience.

I realize that the layman might have to consult more educated men for guidance with the more challenging passages, but anything would be better than the status quo.
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby natman » Sun May 01, 2011 7:50 am

Ramblinman wrote:There is another problem in our congregations that seems to afflict men and women fairly equally. It could be called spiritual laziness. Interpreting the Bible and determining morality based solely upon what your parents taught you, and never questioning what the preacher says. Jesus warned against the blind leading the blind and it still happens today.

We need a new generation of pastors, evangelists and Bible teachers who force people to cultivate their own powers of discernment. I don't mean this in some ethereal sense. We are talking about teaching solid Bible study skills rather than spoon-feeding them doctrine and demanding unquestioning obedience.


AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

It is hard to believe that in 2000 years, the Church has not developed a systematic way to teach new Christians about studying and interpreting Scripture. It all appears to be catch as catch can and very haphazard. :(
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby satexsun » Tue May 03, 2011 12:07 am

The idea of having my nude body seen by someone other than my spouse has created some 'spirited conversations' in the last few years when the subject of social nudity comes up at our house. I have been examined by male and female doctors while fully nude, I have shared lockerrooms with guys while totally nude and I have shared both intimate and other times with my wife fully nude and I think there are miles of difference between the three and have nothing to do with spousal 'priveledge' of viewing one's mate nude.


Since I began hiking nude and occasionally running into both nude and clothed hikers, I can say without question that I do not find social nudity one bit arousing. My spouse, bless her heart, has a completely different view. I'll go out on a limb and say that I would not object to her being seen nude in a social setting, but I'd be willing to say that she woulod find that quite offensive.



I believe its all in the context and the state of mind of the viewer and the viewee. Our son once took an art class and was doing a figure drawing one day in class. I beleive he said the model was wearing a somewhat modest bikini. When a young student passed by the window, in short-shorts and a halter top, the entire class shot glances out the window to see what they could see. I guess I take the view if it is 'out there' to see, in most cases there is nothing new to see.



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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby DaveT » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:30 pm

I keep seeing things that are very important and I wholeheartedly agree with. This is one of the best.

Ramblinman wrote:
We need a new generation of pastors, evangelists and Bible teachers who force people to cultivate their own powers of discernment. I don't mean this in some ethereal sense. We are talking about teaching solid Bible study skills rather than spoon-feeding them doctrine and demanding unquestioning obedience.




Many churches do not encourage independent study because it would be detrimental to some of their own traditional doctrinal teachings. Usually most of the pastors do not know that, they're just doing/teaching what they were taught.

The bible was illegal for that reason all during the dark ages. It was a crime punishable by death to posses the word of God. And many lost their lives over the issue.

We have a problem; It was identified by Jesus when he said "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matt 15:9

Some of those pagan doctrines that were introduced into the roman church during the dark ages are still being hung on to by most of the churches of today. A close study of the bible with a concordance, pulling out everything that's written on a given subject, would reveal the errors for what they are.

As reformers arose, they would see one point of truth, teach it, sometimes be severely persecuted for it. But after their death their followers would refuse to advance into anything beyond what their teacher taught. (and nowdays they're backing off from that even) Another reformer would arise and find more truth. etc... Hence we have many denominations.

Those who want the whole truth should throw out all their preconceived ideas about what is truth, take the Bible and a good concordance and work it out from ground 0 for themselves. At one point in history that was done by a small group, and a denomination grew from the results. However because they had the truth. Satan hated them more than any other, and used every possible means to make them look bad to the world. And now after some 150+ years, a lot of corruption has been inserted by the enemy. He's pretty much taken control of the leadership. So much so that I can't recommend anyone joining the denomination anymore. I know many good people who have left it over the errors being propagated, and internal corruption. It's just that the original doctrines were about as accurate biblically as anyone can get. I'm referring to the seventh day adventist church.

In addition; it is stated in Revelation 19:10 that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy"

That tells me the true prophetic gift will be given to those who carry the true testimony of Jesus.

I think Ellen White had the gift. many have tried to prove otherwise and failed. Anyone I've ever heard of who loves the Lord and reads her books believes her to be genuine.
The church leaders in her time fought against her to some extent. But she kept the infiltrates out for the most part while she was alive.

As an example; In one instance she wrote a litter from Australia to a school administrator in the US, at the point when he opened her letter and began to read it, someone knocked on his door. A man entered his office who requested entrance to the college. In the administrator's hand was a letter describing the man who stood before him and telling who he was and what his purpose was in requesting entrance. (An infiltrate intending to corrupt the doctrinal base.) The administrator told the man who he was and what he was there for, (without telling him he was reading it from the letter in his hand.) and the man gasped "how did you know?" and walked out.

She also predicted the preaching of the gospel by radio. And designated a child who would be instrumental in that area. The child became pastor HMS Richards who started one of the first radio gospel broadcasts in 1929.

And now another prophet has arisen who I believe is true. At least so far everything that he has told about receiving in his dreams seems to measure up to the standard. And some of what he's being shown is amazing. Many details about future events both on earth and beyond. As well as instruction in how to get ready for the end times. The verse is being fulfilled where it says "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" Amos 3:7

At this point all we can do is wait and watch, see what happens. If what he's telling about starts happening we can know for certain that it's true. And of course keep working on developing our owncharacter by spending time in the Word.

As I could almost expect, the church leadership is rejecting him completely. Why? First because he "steps on their toes" as it were. (just like Jesus did to the pharisees) and second because he's made some serious goofs, he's not any more perfect in his life than any of the rest of us. They say "how could such a sinner be a true messenger of God?"
But I believe God chose an imperfect man who would make some not so wise moves, just to give those who want to reject him a good reason to do so.

Well now; I better end the suspension, who is this guy anyway? his website is formypeople.org

It will take some hours to read through all his dreams, some are full of symbols, some are hard to figure out what they mean, a few I can't quite grasp what they mean. But many of them are extremely interesting and exciting. And some of the future events he sees happening are absolutely terrible in the extreme. But he's told these things have to happen in order to finish up the process of ending evil. ----RDT
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby jochanaan » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:00 am

I feel that the Spirit of prophecy has been on many through human history. DaveT, do you know about Rachel Oaks Preston, who taught a group of Millerites (the predecessors of the Seventh-day Adventists) to worship on the Sabbath? She was from my prior denomination, the Seventh Day Baptists, and by all accounts I've read, she was quite a lady. I don't doubt that the Spirit of prophecy was on her, in the sense of her telling the revealed Sabbath truth. And I've known others, and known of others, by whom prophetic messages were revealed. The Spiritual gifts were by no means withdrawn at the end of New Testament times.
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby natman » Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:57 am

I am always leery of those who proclaim themselves to be prophets. It is not that I do not believe that Holy Spirit-driven prophesy no longer occurs. However, the proof is always in the pudding. As a prophet, 100% of what is said must be accurate and 100% must line up with Scripture.

We are called to test everything against the already revealed Word of God and to cling to that with is true, just as the Bereans did. This includes but is not limited to Ernie Knoll.

As a side note, from a naturist perspective, I noticed that the cover of his book apparently depicts Heaven, with streets of gold, a beautiful city, beasts and other animals living in peace, beautiful gardens. Unfortunately, the artist chose to depict humans covered in literal robes when the Bible indicates that such covering would be figurative, referring to the righteous acts of the saints or Jesus' righteousness. In other words, similar to the Garden scenes often depicted in art, I think that Heavenly scenes should depict humans the way God intended us to be, once again, "naked and unashamed". :D But then, he might not sell as many books. :(
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby prairieboy » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:53 pm

Ramblinman wrote:I realize that the layman might have to consult more educated men for guidance with the more challenging passages, but anything would be better than the status quo.

Several more educated men with various viewpoints. The more educated men tend to be locked in on what they believe, which may or may not be the truth, usually whatever their particular school taught. By consulting with several, one often discovers the truth somewhere in between. The most important element is to prayerfully seek the Truth.

Matthew 7:7
,8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
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Re: Nudity only to be seen by the spouse?

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:50 pm

prairieboy wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:I realize that the layman might have to consult more educated men for guidance with the more challenging passages, but anything would be better than the status quo.

Several more educated men with various viewpoints. The more educated men tend to be locked in on what they believe, which may or may not be the truth, usually whatever their particular school taught. By consulting with several, one often discovers the truth somewhere in between. The most important element is to prayerfully seek the Truth.

Matthew 7:7
,8
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


I did not mean that a layman should blindly ask only one Bible scholar "What does this passage mean?" and then say to himself, "That settles the matter!".
But if you have access to people with knowledge of Greek and Hebrew concerning specific Bible verses and knowledge of the customs of Bible lands, it is a source of insight that you will not get simply by meditating harder or longer without that information.
Yes, it is best to confirm that opinion with that of other Bible scholars.
But to blindly accept an opinion from someone simply because he went to seminary? Uh..., no!!
Nor is it wise to assume that your own meditations will be free from doctrinal error simply because they were lengthy ruminations and bathed in prayer.
It is a combination of direct reading of scripture, the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life, and seeking better understanding of the original wording through knowledge of culture and language.
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