One Answer and a Question

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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:26 am

jochanaan wrote:...... the fatal flaw of getting into serious and deep issues.......... Oh, I understand when to go deep and when not to-
Emphasis added

That discernment is where I am a bit weak, but that is common for Aspies. It arises from a weakness in discerning implicit clues such as derive from body language. and connotation in words versus their denotation etc.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:13 am

Petros wrote:...Some there be, though, where I simply cannot communicate meaningfully - I can with some lecture or joke.

Jesus often used parables as an effective way to communicate with opinionated listeners.
Rod Serling seems to have done this in his own way as well.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Petros » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:51 pm

Some further perusal of clothing relevant sensory issues reminds one [been a while since I last looked into it]. While many on or near the spectrum ave various sensory quirks, there is a very great variety in kind and intensity. And reading further reminds:

some long for relief from the pressures and textures.

some need the pressures [maybe some enjoy the textures? not clear].

some are primarily focussed on the feel, and would an if they could drop clothes not thermally motivated.

some profess the same need for concealment and protection from others' nudity that Herself demonstrates.

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The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Ramblinman » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:48 am

A profession of need does not establish need, but in the case of Aspergers victims, one wonders if the brain is hard-wired to such proclivities.

I wonder how one who has a phobia of human skin could work as a dermatologist, teacher of a college class in life drawing, take gang showers whilst serving in the military, etc...

So unless one aspires to these professions, I suppose a lifetime of avoidance can enable the phobic to remain untreated, getting by as best one can in a world of intermittently naked people.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby New_Adventurer » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:35 pm

She's happily married to someone else, one whom I respect greatly. But she knows how to be a friend "closer than a brother." It works that way sometimes.


I had a coworker like that, but sadly, she passed away on her 44th birthday from a blood clot (her husband passed away near his 55th). I had a discussion with her once along the lines of... The position of wife is taken, there will not be a mistress, so I will just have to park you in the position of adopted sister. She thought about that for a minute and then agreed that it would be the perfect solution.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:08 pm

Ramblinman wrote:A profession of need does not establish need, but in the case of Aspergers victims, one wonders if the brain is hard-wired to such proclivities.
The predominant theory is that it is indeed hardwired as such. Among Aspies the term for those who do not have it is "Neurotypicals" or NT's for short.

The predominant characteristics of Aspergers are clearly manifestations of mental function, and there are less obvious aspects such as the average IQ of Aspies is slightly higher than for the general population.

The degree of Aspergers is variable and can range from slight producing some personal quirks, to gifted eccentric, to socially struggling to cope. Now classified as an autism spectrum disorder, Aspergers is actually a small portion of the autism spectrum ranging from:
-- quirky or eccentric near normal, with gifted tendancies in focused areas of interest
on down to
-- troubled, special needs sorts.

One aspie I corresponded with did not grasp that other people were self aware or had emotions until somewhere around age seven or so, when her mother one day said "I love you" and suddenly she grasped that emotions were not something unique to her. With a lot of help she continued to make breakthoughs and last I heard from her was becoming very functional at a useful level in social situations.

As far as "expression of needs" many Aspies are self diagnosed long before anyone else figures it out and many have a litany of wrong diagnoses in their personal history, many times leading to drug regimens that are all wrong. Many have had no real help dealing with it until they encounter the description of it and suddenly realize that they are reading about their own experience. It was that way with me.

As to your use of the term "Aspergers victims" It may be appropriate for those deep into the spectrum and for others not so deep who are only moderately inconvenienced. But in the case of those with only slight inconvenience, Aspergers may bestow more valued advantages than disadvantages, at least when seen from the point of view of the Aspie. I regard myself as falling into the latter category. Finding the right niche in socitey is the key. In my own experience, I have said on many occasions, I would not trade my gifts for a cure. Not that I would mind getting rid of some of the inconveniences if I could keep the gifts.

Aspies often fit in well in certain niches. In a list of professions where Aspies often do well, two that were listed were Engineer and College Professor. I have been both rolled into one.
-- 13 years in the nuclear energy field designing the guts of nuclear reactors
and
-- 17 years University teaching after I got my Ph.D..

Ramblinman wrote: I wonder how......teacher of a college class in life drawing,

I believe that the reason that college teaching works well is because it is structured, the students are there by choice and motivated to learn, the professor is there to teach, and deeply engrossed in his/her specialty. So long as the topic is technical the situation is a pretty good recipe for success for an aspie.

Ramblinman wrote: (I wonder how......) take gang showers whilst serving in the military, etc...
Probably the reason that the military works well for many Aspies, is that it is structured with many rules. An environment of explicitly stated rules is often a situation in which Aspies will thrive. It is all those implied and unstated rules that are likely to cause their downfall.

Ramblinman wrote: So unless one aspires to these professions, I suppose a lifetime of avoidance can enable the phobic to remain untreated, getting by as best one can in a world of intermittently naked people.
I believe that in the case of aspies, the word "phobic" is probably the wrong connotation if not indeed the wrong denotation. The aversions that manifest among aspies are not due to an irrational fear, but rather by an overwhelming reaction to a stimulus that dominates the senses. What may be misperceived as a fear reaction, is actually a withdrawal from a stimulus that is so strong as to interfere with functioning as opposed to it being fear that is interfering with functioning. For instance I have substantial difficulty concentrating mentally in the presence of certain types of sounds or scents. The distraction is just too much. I simply cannot conceive of how other people can endure strong perfumes or the grossly overdone levels of flavoring put into some foods. I can understand that others do so, but to conceive of how they do it is akin to describing the concept of color to one born blind.

On the flip side of what I cannot do is what I found myself doing exceptionally well as a Machine Design Specialist and engineer. I can visulize complex and subtle 3 dimensonal items and manipulate and modify them them as I go, much like one might see in Computer Aided Design software but I create them as I go in real time. It took me quite a while to figure out that my colleagues whose education was as good or superior to my own were not doing this in the same way as I was. I just thought everybody could do this. It allowed me to excel in in design and innovate. My boss asked me on one occasion to try to design something that would do a particular task, the next day when I had submitted 5 radically different concepts, he asked me how had I come up with such completely different designs. That was when I got the first clue that I was doing something different than the others. But there is no way that I could ever have moved up the ladder as an engineering manager ........ No people skills :shock: least ways not outside of a strict hierarchical structure.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Petros » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:14 pm

Some slots in the spectrum - which really is more a solid than anything two dimensional may well - I do not know that it is proven - have serious functional handicaps. Interestingly, a lot of the reported ways of human children reared [by animals] outside of human society , if true, are very similar - and of course for some spectrals it IS being reared by an alien species. Anecdotes suggest that the right kind of parental involvement makers big differences.

But for many of us, the handicap is a difficulty integrating with society which in many cases - certainly in ours here - is not much different from the difficulties faced by my southpaw brother, or the people who cannot stand "normal" household chemicals, etc. Give us a different environment. I used to want to be Ranger Gord [and I would have been fine with it]. Herself's sister could not bear to be by herself. Which is the more handicapped?

Fact is, pretty much NOBODY is designed to live in our urbanized mechanized polluted junkfood clockdriven deciballistic "civilization". Where is the pill for that?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:25 am

Petros wrote:...Fact is, pretty much NOBODY is designed to live in our urbanized mechanized polluted junkfood clockdriven deciballistic "civilization". Where is the pill for that?


By these days it was a demerit to be muscular. Each infant was examined at birth, and all who promised undue strength were destroyed. Humanitarians may protest, but it would have been no true kindness to let an athlete live; he would never have been happy in that state of life to which the Machine had called him; he would have yearned for trees to climb, rivers to bathe in, meadows and hills against which he might measure his body. Man must be adapted to his surroundings, must he not? In the dawn of the world our weakly must be exposed on Mount Taygetus, in its twilight our strong will suffer euthanasia, that the Machine may progress, that the Machine may progress, that the Machine may progress eternally. E.M. Forster - The Machine Stops

And one more quote:

I felt that humanity existed, and that it existed without clothes. How can I possibly explain this? It was naked, humanity seemed naked, and all these tubes and buttons and machineries neither came into the world with us, nor will they follow us out, nor do they matter supremely while we are here. Had I been strong, I would have torn off every garment I had, and gone out into the outer air unswaddled. But this is not for me, nor perhaps for my generation. I climbed with my respirator and my hygienic clothes and my dietetic tabloids! Better thus than not at all. E.M. Forster - The Machine Stops
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:28 am

Showing my ignorance, but I thought that Asperger's was merely a mental illness in which one blurted out profanity at inopportune times. Is that simply the most famous symptom of the disease?
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Petros » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:40 am

THAT is one and I am told fairly rare manifestation of Tourette's syndrome.

I suppose one may have both. But the primary feature of what we're dealing with is probably best described as a processing of sensory inputs differently from the lave. No time or drive to expand on standard or my own theories, but two instances:

1. THE CRAZY LADY : long after I figured out - my mother was having me checked to see did I count as autistic [which I am not] because of my unexpectednesses and sensitivities [she toward the end said I was the most sensitive of the lot]. I was about 4th grade. The crazy lady came, showed me pictures - 8x10 glossies - of people doing this and that. I was asked to "tell the story that went with each picture". Well duh - here is a girl sitting in a chair sulking. I do NOT know any story like that, though I can tell you Little Red Riding Hood easily. There IS no story with a girl in modern clothes sulking in a chair.

If she had asked me to tell her what the girl was feeling - sad, angry, expectant - I could have done THAT. Not GREAT and facial cues and body language, but not stinking either. But the woman - presumably up on the spectrum as known at the time, pre Aspergerr's - did not know how or did not bother to communicate her meaning to one of different brain and socialization. If she had thought my thinking languagew was Hungarian ...

2. The Guy in the Office. Years back Wee Coryl showed me a piece in her home town paper she thought was a riot. Fun essay about this guy at work, when you ask him how he is, he tells you. Dumb cluck doesn't realize it is a piece of social bonding that has no MEANING - just give the password and say shibboleth. No, HE thought it was a question, how quaint.

Being one who has to work to reinforce my natural secretiveness to keep from assuming people MEAN what they SAY, I did not find it funny, read her the riot act on the subject of people who write humorous articles mocking others' hare lips and limps and left handedness and problems with phatic rituals. Shamed her.

It is not to my credit that I myself can get uppity and, yes, mocking,when people do not realize Yiddish is a German dialect.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:53 am

Ramblinman wrote:Showing my ignorance, but I thought that Asperger's was merely a mental illness in which one blurted out profanity at inopportune times. Is that simply the most famous symptom of the disease?

1. Thank you for asking, Yes I do mean thank you, sincerely, because you asked, and being properly understood is something that is beneficial to Aspies. The condition that you describe is Tourette's syndrome, and is entirely different from Asperger's but it would not be impossible for an Aspie to have it as noted by Petros, but it is not all that likely to have both.

Should you be interested to know what Asperger's syndrome is I would suggest getting into the web site:http://www.wrongplanet.net/ and getting into the forums where Aspies discuss the issues that they face and their viewpoints.

The psychiatrists who produce The Diagnostic Standard Manual, have upgraded it to yet a new version and have eliminated Asperger's syndrome and simply call it an autism spectrum disorder. I regard that choice as a disservice as Aspergers needs to be dealt with differently from what is generally known as Autism, or maybe not "dealt with" at all. Many Aspies do just fine without a diagnosis, and are just a bit different in their approach to things and ought not to be referred to as "disordered"

Aspies are differently ordered from most of the population but non necessarily dysfunctionally so. For instance it has been observed that Aspies
-- tend to have higher IQ's
-- tend to be more truthful
-- tend to understand words literally
Those traits show that they are differently ordered but not necessarily "disordered". That is not the whole of it but the title of the website "Wrong Planet" is a way of acknowledging that they do sometimes feel like they were born on the wrong planet as they don't quite fit on this one. So then Petros' example of the man who when asked "how he was" simply responded to the literal meaning of the words of the question (much as the star trek characters Spock and Data might from time to time).

One of the misconceptions that plagues Aspies is being accused of lacking empathy. This is not true! But not reading the body language clues used in most of our society is a weakness and much of what most people feel they show by their body language. Aspies can very well sympathize with the joys and anguishes of others, just as soon as we figure out that they are experienceing them, but we are slow to pick up on what is not explicitly stated it is not that we don't care it is just that we don't readily know what is going on with others. Likewise, not reading body language well, we do not do it well either, and may apperar strange or eccentric to others. This has led to some aspies carrying a card to explain to police that they have asperger's and this may be a problem as police are trained to respond to body language and Aspies don't always send the "right/normal" signals and some have been egregiously mistreated. We are different, we are not crazy, and we are not mentally ill, and our responses to certain environmental stimuli are real and not feigned. One common problem is that we avoid eye contact as that is too strong a communication mode and becomes distractive to our thinking processes. Hence people think we are being unfriendly or lying, because that is what it would indicate on the part of someone who is neurotypical and doing the same thing. We do learn to deal with some of these differences but often we will not succeed in becoming really good at compensating.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:45 am

Bare_Truth wrote:1. Thank you for asking, Yes I do mean thank you, sincerely, because you asked, and being properly understood is something that is beneficial to Aspies. The condition that you describe is Tourette's syndrome, and is entirely different from Asperger's but it would not be impossible for an Aspie to have it as noted by Petros, but it is not all that likely to have both.

I had heard the term batted around, but never had a working definition. I can always look up something on Wikipedia or Google, but never had the need to understand what it is, just assumed it was a form of mental illness.

But now that I think of it, I have met people who don't make eye contact and have very poor social skills, poor communication skills. I assumed that they just weren't raised right but could learn to be more outgoing with practice.
We had a guy like that at work, always rude to the guys calling in for support, so we tried to get him away from any work where he had interactions with people, just let him work on computers by himself and he did a great job and we didn't have our field staff quit in anger anymore.

Although I had heard about people who are called sociopaths and committed terrible crimes because they don't relate well to others, don't treat others with any kind of empathy. This is why I think such people are suspect, because on simple observation they fit the profile of dangerous personality types.

We had one girl at church who finally stopped attending because some guy kept bird dogging her for dates and chit chat and he could never pick up on the visual cues that she was NOT INTERESTED. She was a polite Southern girl who was raised to never be assertive, just suffer in silence until she complained to the class leader in private, but the rest of us could see how miserable she was as he kept after her. Someone finally asked him to stop coming to class, but not before the damage had been done.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby jochanaan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:57 am

I know a man here in Denver who has Tourette's syndrome and may possibly also have Asperger's. In him the exclamations take the form of doglike barks. Once you accept that the normal social "graces" and "cues" don't exist for him, he's actually enjoyable to talk to.
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Petros » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:00 pm

"The psychiatrists who produce The Diagnostic Standard Manual, have upgraded it to yet a new version and have eliminated Asperger's syndrome and simply call it an autism spectrum disorder. I regard that choice as a disservice as Aspergers needs to be dealt with differently from what is generally known as Autism, or maybe not "dealt with" at all. "

Amen to that. My sisters are about as different physically and mentally as one can well get with identical ancestry and Maureen is particularly ill adapted top operate in society - on my worst day I do much better. But they get classed as "normal" - forgive their brother for snorting "HAH!". Yet if the Crazy Lady had come around at a time when the US was familiar with Asperger's I would have been assigned a diagnosis and a "special" track.

As for cues and empathy - it cuts both ways. There is good evidence I have more empathy than many allegedly normal I deal with, but it does not count because I do not express it conventionally, while my sister Diana is a good bit colder but manipulates her signals so you will THINK she is so full of empathy

I have found - as I suspect Bare Truth has - that I send and receive signals to some people - not all of whom are spectral - quite successfully, while many "normals" - including most of my and Herself's families - totally miss the signals we send and receive ourselves. I am not bothered by chalk screeching on the board [good thing given my profession]. People with other ears can listen to fingernails being filed unmoved. Not deaf or blind, just working with different wave lengths. And language differences - I can speak and follow A's "social language" with some difficulty and occasional funny blunders, A never boothgers to learn my language.

Well, why should he? the majority determines, and I am living in A's country, not he in mine.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: One Answer and a Question

Postby Petros » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:52 am

Ramblinman -

if I asked I would have said noone else knew of The Machine Stops. I owe you one - my memory for names and numbers being what it isn't, I had not had it attached to Forster. I shall have to get the info to Number 1 Son, who if I mistake not will appreciate it.
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