So, have I got this straight?

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So, have I got this straight?

Postby Petros » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:37 pm

Let me just see how this works. This is a compilation of what seem to be the normal norms for our normative culture. Other times, other places, other norms, but Norm from Normal School seems to think such cultural differences are problematic and need to be eradicated [while championing diversity].

1. Little children, who are often naturally inclined to go au naturel, and who are not flooded with sex hormones, should never be seen naked [in part because of predators] nor should they see nudity because they will get confused or ask questions, may realize boys differ from girls or that Sonny differs from Daddy and Missy differs from Mommy.

2. Normal adults should not be naked because they will offend or be taken for predators and their unadorned bodies are not that great to look at. They should not see others nude because the said others are kooks or predators and have really ugly bodies.

3. Women should not be nude because that undermines feminist goals.

4. Men should not be nude because that maintains the aggressive predatory male hegemony.

5. Protestors and homosexuals [especially if protesting] are allowed to be naked because that is expression and raises onlookers' consciousness.

6. Sex workers are allowed to be nude if they remain in the sex worker reservations; presumably they should dress to go home.

7. Celebrities are allowed and in many cases expected to be nude or nearly so on screen, on holiday in sight of papparazzi, and at celebrity events where wardrobe failures are anticipated.

To sum up:

8. Normal people may be nude in the bathroom or in bed.

9. Normal people should see nudity on screen or when interacting with sex workers.

10. Anything else is just wrong and weird and it is on page 47 of the magazine in my closet.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby MoNatureMan » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:03 pm

The crazy part of all that is the foundation of the beliefs you just mentioned.
It appears to be a societal belief system that may or may not have been shaped by events in relative recent history.
If you ask most people why Americans (for example) are so modest and against casual social nudity, I suspect you would get a lot of words without foundation.
Then of course when considering Hollywood and protesters into all that, all logic goes away.

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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby Petros » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:15 am

If I have learned anything in my time on earth so far, it is that we are not to expect any logical coherence in any of the works of man. Very obvious in our languages [my speciality], unmistakable in behavioral studies.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:02 pm

"Human Behaviour"

If you ever get close to a human
and human behaviour
be ready to get confused

there's definitely no logic
to human behaviour
but yet so irresistible

there is no map
to human behaviour

they're terribly moody
then all of a sudden turn happy
but, oh, to get involved in the exchange
of human emotions is ever so satisfying

there's no map and
a compass
wouldn't help at all

human behaviour
Lyrics by Björk and Nellee Hooper
Composer: Björk (one of the most illogical, eccentric humans on the planet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDbPYoaAiyc
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby jochanaan » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:32 pm

It's hard work to think for oneself; so most folks just accept traditions without serious question. However:

"Tradition is laziness." (Gustav Mahler)

"Tradition is the last bad performance." (Arturo Toscanini)

"A legend, a lie and a likelihood make tradition." (Gene Wolfe, The Book of the New Sun)
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby jochanaan » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:32 pm

Ramblinman wrote:"Human Behaviour"

If you ever get close to a human
and human behaviour
be ready to get confused

there's definitely no logic
to human behaviour
but yet so irresistible

there is no map
to human behaviour

they're terribly moody
then all of a sudden turn happy
but, oh, to get involved in the exchange
of human emotions is ever so satisfying

there's no map and
a compass
wouldn't help at all

human behaviour
Lyrics by Björk and Nellee Hooper
Composer: Björk (one of the most illogical, eccentric humans on the planet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDbPYoaAiyc

:like:
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby JimShedd112 » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:11 pm

Isn't it a crazy, mixed up world? Nudity is viewed as bad except when it's expected to lead to some ulterior motive such as a thrill for the viewer.

Why can't nudity ever be accepted as normal and commonplace without allusions to sexuality?

On our sister site, Christian-Naturists Miriam and her husband Creative have made a challenge to nudists to witness to non-nudists everyday about the goodness and wholesomeness of living nude. I hope many will take up the challenge as I have done.

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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby nakedpreacher » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:11 am

I have been thinking about this a lot and I have a thought not completely formed in my head. I am hoping that you all can kind of help me talk it out. It occurs to me that the general population does not want to see good nudity because it will point out by contrast the badness of the nudity that they consume. If the human body remains in all cases a sex object or obscene then we don't have to feel as bad because we become numb to the obscenity. Once good nudity enters the picture then obscenity becomes utterly obscene and undeniably so. am I making sense or talking in circles?
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If, when we judged others, our real motive was to destroy evil; we should look for evil where it is certain to be found, and that is in our own hearts. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby Petros » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:26 am

Ramblinman:

Cute coinkidink. This evening I was talking on an unrelated subject to Number 1 Son, and he brought up Björk, of whom I habd not till tonight heard.

Nakedpreacher:

Your hypothesis may have merit, but I honestly do not have enough insight into human motivations to assent or disagree. My one concern would be, does the general population have a spontaneous opinion on the subject, or are they edged into it by the manipulators of socialization? There are enough cultures on record that have been comfortable with the uncovered body, including in some cases free total nudity
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby jasenj1 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:15 pm

NP, I believe Pastor David R.N. discusses this some on his site. http://www.pastordavidrn.com/files/rebu ... links.html

Modern, USA culture has turned nudity into a commodity - a sexual commodity. You are either a producer or a consumer. If you are a producer, you should/must be a an "attractive" young person, preferably female (you can be a semi-nude male, but fully nude males, i.e. ones showing their penis, are for homosexuals).

This is why many people are so uncomfortable with breastfeeding. Bare breasts are part of the sexual nudity product. Seeing them in another context both triggers the sexual response, and makes the viewer weirded out by the baby sucking on the things that are for sexual enjoyment. Eww!

So I don't think good nudity "shames" sexual/obscene nudity. I just think people can't hold both ideas in their head at the same time. If nudity is sexual, then it is always sexual (except in very certain exemptions). And sexuality is a very binary state - all on or all off. So the idea of seeing a co-worker nude becomes very uncomfortable - she/he has a "good looking" body, so I should be turned on; but it's inappropriate to be aroused by a co-worker so I shouldn't see them nude. This extends to family nudity, too.

Other cultures (Europe) do not have this exclusive/tight coupling of nudity & sex. But the US does.
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Re: So, have I got this straight?

Postby jochanaan » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:17 pm

The mindset we're trying to fight has many facets.

First and hardest to face is the conditioning most of us suffered through childhood that simply says it's wrong to be naked. For many of us, this was a shame-based conditioning: "Good boys/girls don't do that!" For young women, there is also a strong element of blame-the-victim conditioning; if they are seen less than "completely clothed," whatever that means to their particular subculture, they are told that young men will not be able to control themselves.

Second, the popular media rely heavily on this early conditioning to sell products. By pushing the literal "envelope" to ever-decreasing "coverage," they hint that buying their stuff will give us access to the forbidden sight of naked humans, or a naked human. "If you buy this, you'll soon see more of 'her'!" A corollary to this is the increasing insistence that only bodies of a certain type are worthy of such uncovering. And of course, since it's necessary to be nude to do sex (at least nude in the parts that are most heavily affected by The Great Coverup), nudity becomes associated only with sexual activity or temptation.

Finally, and most devastatingly, many church leaders have reacted to this increasing sexualization by an increasing insistence on The Great Coverup. Not only this, but they shame those who dare to question it, sometimes calling them terrible things in the name of "Christian morality."

Lies, all of it! And the devil is laughing. He likes nothing better than for God's image to be dragged through filth.

Opposed to these lies is our Divinely inspired simple knowledge that the human body is innocent, holy and beautiful. But folks' minds have become so twisted that if we speak what we know, we are seen as siding with the opposition. :cry:
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