Dichotomy

Are there any other issues that bother you about nudism / naturism not covered above? How can it be Christian? Other? Any question is acceptable, just keep the conversation courteous and respectful.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

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Postby boondon » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:11 am

I have approached this issue with thinking of my enjoyment of nude recreation as the equivalent of enjoying any other hobby or something else you do in your spare time.
1) I am convinced in my heart I am doing nothing wrong in God's eyes.
2) The perception of naturism in someone else's eyes is THEIR problem, not mine. If given the chance, I will attempt to try to explain my view. But I don't feel it necessary to fess up to any "crimes". My wife settled in her heart last summer that she was doing nothing wrong. Up until that point, she wasn't so sure. She also has felt the need to tell her family and I told her to go ahead if she wanted to. I don't expect any bombs to fall any time soon, though.
I hope I offend no one here with this statement: When I read a question like this, it does seem to indicate that we are keeping a "dirty, little secret". Yes, I guess it is a secret. But it isn't dirty at all. I really do think that as long as we are convinced in our hearts that it is not sin, then we are doing nothing wrong. We are free in Christ to not sin, you know, so therefore we can do it in our own time just like we might choose to relax in a recliner reading a good book. What's the difference? And who really needs to know if that is the level to which we take our practice of naturism? I've read elsewhere of obsessions/priorities, but that is a different thread. If it takes over our life as to cause difficulties in worshiping God or taking care of our families, than we have a problem on our hands. As long as we treat it as a hobby/activity that we can enjoy in our spare time, than so what?
Don
God has created you naked and called you "Very Good!"
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Postby Alfie » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:54 pm

SonClad wrote:....Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to keep quiet and not stir up trouble with those that are weaker in the faith (i.e., those that cannot seem to accept others' liberties in Christ that they themselves may not necessarily be inclined to explore).


That's a great statement as it speaks of love but it also aludes to the fact that many of our faith cling to legalism and dogmas in order to overcome some of their weakness and insecurities instead of feeling secure in the knowledge that God has set us free in his grace, free from sin, Satan's power and from 'the law'. Some find it hard to abide in His love and to accept that his grace is sufficent for us. They still need rules and rituals in order to feel secure in their life and faith.
This relates to their condemnation of naturism and nudity (both social and, for some, private).
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Postby Walking Bare » Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:50 am

I know that this topic has been dormant for a while now but thought I would post anyway.

As a pastor in a very small town I also become a chaplain to the community. Church members know that I try to always seek a biblical position on topics even though this sometimes conflicts with denominational and/or social norms. The general community is not so understanding, judging topics on the basis of social or religious tradition. They can be more aggravation than the oneriest church member, sometimes even calling the denominational hierarchy to inform them of what I am doing in the community, at times this has worked to my benefit.

With naturism as any other topic I have gotten into discussions about the biblical position and been found to have a different understanding of the topic than most of the religious community or general society. Most of these discussions stay on the philosophical or theoretical level. Occasionally we will progress from talking about our position on the topic to participation. Here I proceed according to my relationship with the person I am talking with and who is present. I will talk about past events, I came to Christ later in life and most everyone around knows that I had broad experiences. If I am with people that I have a good relationship with I will share more recent experiences if the discussion leads that way.

My position on naturism comes up much less often and gets me in much less trouble than my position that total abstinence for alcohol is not called for and that gluttony is condemned equally with drunkenness.
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Postby Paul Walker » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:50 am

Amen, brother!!!

God's word says that alchohol is permitted to those with pain and those who are terminal. Gluttony is indeed sin, but not just gluttony of food either. Gluttony of anything can be sin. Even gluttony of money, power, fame, sex, jewelry, etc.

As for your community situation, as long as you are living in line with God's word, the sword of His word will protect you. If you really, REALLY want to get everyone stirred up, get a picture of Jesus hanging on the cross unclothed (as scripture clearly states he was) instead of clothed like you usually find. People will FREAK out! When you point out that the nude image of our savior ont he cross is accurate, people will demand it be taken down and call it anything from 'nasty' to 'immoral' or even 'blasphemous'! It is very sad indeed the small things Satan uses to get between the 'normal' people and our savior, however small they may seem. A lot of small things add up to a big one, that is my biggest fear of all.

Praise Him!!!
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Postby bn2bnude » Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:43 am

Paul Walker wrote:Amen, brother!!!

God's word says that alchohol is permitted to those with pain and those who are terminal.


And Jesus made water into wine (and I believe that it is wine with alcohol) for a wedding. The only prohibition on alcohol in the bible is to not be drunk.

Proverbs has many passages against drunkeness then there is the favorite "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit," (Eph 5:18 - NKJV)

Let's not can sin something that is not sin and let's not call something that is sin, not sinful.
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Postby Walking Bare » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:18 am

In another area I posted about the principle of moderation in all things. Acknowledging that some activities are forbidden, adultery, murder, etc. I believe that excess in anything is when it becomes sinful. This can be excessive participation, which is comparable to idolatry or greed, OR avoidance which becomes legalism.
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Postby bn2bnude » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:26 am

Let me explain why I am so particular when it comes to interpretation.

It all comes down to dichotomy... Far too long, the Christians in the United States have blindly followed what our leaders have said or been looking though culture colored glasses. This goes all the way from the legalistic to the extremely liberal. Were we to differ with these leaders, we were questioned, ridiculed, called sinners or even excommunicated from the fellowship we belong to.

In my lifetime, I remember the faith and wealth movement, the rise of the charismatic movement, seeing legalism at it's best, etc. Each movement (some rightfully, some wrongfully acquired it's share of criticism from other sides.

The problem is that if our leaders are (for lack of a better, more direct term) lying (mis-quoting, mis-interpreting, etc) the Bible, what are those of us who do study and know Gods word supposed to do when we find the inconsistencies.

We need to learn to study Gods Word properly, putting things into proper context to avoid many of these problems. Let's be honest with others, not trying to control the way they live but to let the Holy Spirit control their lives based upon the truth in the Bible.
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Postby Walking Bare » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:28 am

Paul

I can just imagine the reaction to a naked crucifix. Do you have a source for one.

We have a picture in our home of Jesus with His head thrown back in laughter. While most people love the joy that it represents some people are uncomfortable with it because it lacks reverence. I guess they their image of Christ has been formed more by religious practice and images rather than scripture.
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Postby jochanaan » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:07 pm

Walking Bare wrote:...We have a picture in our home of Jesus with His head thrown back in laughter. While most people love the joy that it represents some people are uncomfortable with it because it lacks reverence...

And obviously, the examples of Jesus' wit, and there are many (just read the Sermon on the Mount :lol: ), fly right over their heads. :cry:
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Postby natman » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:53 pm

Walking Bare wrote:Paul

I can just imagine the reaction to a naked crucifix. Do you have a source for one.


The following link has some realistic images of Jesus (depicted by Wilem Defoe in "The Last Temptation of Christ"), hanging naked upon the cross, although, I believe that the reality of the scene would have been far more bloody and without the supportive ropes on his hands and feet. IMHO, none of the movie depictions I have seen adequately display the brutality of the crucifixion process and it seems that the Church generally wants to whitewash it as well, making the price our Lord paid in terms of physical pain seem almost trite.

I have seen many early paintings and mosaic works showing Christ naked during baptism and crucifixion, and a good many more where it is obvious that someone has come back and painted or sculpted a breach on Him, probably during the iconclastic periods.





This was modified from the original


Carving by Michelangelo


Christ Carrying the Cross by Michelangelo (1521).

I recall seeing several crucifixes in churches over the years where Jesus is depicted uncovered, and many photgraphs of crucifixes and paintings from European churches and acthrdals depicted in the same manner.

SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Postby nudjohn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:25 pm

Rightly dividing the word of truth.... Modesty=moderation
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Postby jochanaan » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:33 pm

Amen, nudjohn. :D
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Postby Paul Walker » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:03 pm

Those pictures of our Lord and savious on the cross got me a little choked up. Let me state here and now, I am not worthy of the sacrifice Jesus made for me, it is His grace alone that has saved me, not any doing of mine. Praise Him!!

I really need to do more study on this, but I am fairly sure that Jesus was unclothed from the time e was pulled from prison until his dead body was wrapped (temporarily, of course!) in the shroud for burial. Then, Jesus was unclothed again when he left the tomb and for a while thereafter. It is clear to me that Jesus was not ashamed of his body, even after all the sins of mankind were placed on him. Therefore, why should I be shameful? Rather, I am thankful and proud of my Lord! And rightly so!!!
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Postby arom » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:28 pm

Thank you all for an outstanding thread. Jesus Christ is the perfect man and the perfect God. And as man he can laugh and cry.

None of us are worthy Paul, that is what makes His gift to us all that more amazing.

He Lives!
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Postby jochanaan » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:25 pm

Paul Walker wrote:...I really need to do more study on this, but I am fairly sure that Jesus was unclothed from the time e was pulled from prison until his dead body was wrapped (temporarily, of course!) in the shroud for burial...

Apparently not quite. "And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him...And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots." (Matthew 27:31,35) The soldiers first, mockingly, stripped him, then put a purple robe on his already shredded back; then took it off (ripping away the blood clots that would have formed in the robe and opening the wounds again) and put His own clothes back on Him. Then, although this detail is not specified in the texts, they would have stripped Him again before nailing Him to the cross; thus the gambling for His garments during the crucifixion.

(I wish The Passion of the Christ would have showed this detail, as The Last Temptation of Christ did! But apparently Mel Gibson was too bound by the traditions of his own super-conservative branch of Catholicism for strict historical accuracy. He also shows Our Savior carrying the whole cross, although the best historical sources I know of indicate He would only have carried the horizontal piece, the stipes. But at least Gibson showed Jesus naked at the Resurrection! :D )
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