Rebellion of Nudity & Meaning of Clothing - Piper

Are there any other issues that bother you about nudism / naturism not covered above? How can it be Christian? Other? Any question is acceptable, just keep the conversation courteous and respectful.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

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Postby jochanaan » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:03 pm

dby wrote:...Perhaps we might visualize a teeter-totter with physicality over on the left and spirituality over on the right. Originally the majority of the weight was over on the side of spirituality. But right now the majority of the weight is over on the side of physicality. One day, the weight is again going to shift over to the side of spirituality...

Hmmm...I'm still thinking about your other points, but it seems more likely to me that Adam and Eve were made both body and spirit, in perfect balance. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual; but are we not promised a new body--a heavenly body, granted, as I Corinthians 15 makes clear, but a body nonetheless?

Also, I'm remembering the Betazoids from Star Trek: Next Generation and later shows. They (for all you non-Trekkies out there) are a humanoid race with telepathic powers, and also comfortable enough with nudity that one of their women insists on being naked in her wedding ceremony (and totally freaking out her groom-to-be, a high Federation official!). It makes perfect sense that a race so spiritually aware would have no problem with physical nakedness. 8)
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Postby td » Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:10 pm

I don't want anyone to think I'm being blasphemous so let me make a couple clarifications of my own. My little scenario of events is far from what I believe to be true but just possible. I'm quite familiar with the accounts in Genesis as well as of Jesus' life. I accept the accounts at face value and believe them as they stand. However, I also recognize the fact that the accounts in Genesis give few details and to fill in the details by means of science or reason is pure speculation on our part. In that regard I find it fascinating to muse about what might have been.

Regarding the physical status of Adam and Eve, I am not suggesting that they were nebulous beings devoid of physical qualities and dimensions as we think of "spirits" today. It is quite obvious that God created Adam from actual matter and we will assume from that detail that he had an actual body but that doesn't mean his body shared the same properties as our post-fall bodies. Like dby, I am suggesting that Adam and Eve originally had bodies similar to that with which Jesus manifested himself after the resurrection. Of course he ate, as did Adam, but his body was incorruptible, and was not of the same properties of we are made. Our bodies, like all other known beasts, are inevitably corruptible by their very nature. Jesus' post-res. body and possibly Adam and Eve's bodies were of a different property which were not subject to the laws of nature as we understand them but were fully able to interact with the natural world as we know it. So, in that respect, my proposition is in line with natman and dby. However, I propose that those bodies are still of this world and are subject to the natural law that God set in place at the beginning of time. Despite our puffed up pride in our understanding of the natural world and the laws that govern it, our understanding is feeble. We only know what we can observe, but there are a great many things which we cannot.

However, my suggestion includes the possibility of other living things of God's creation who's bodies possess the same properties of Adam and Eve's pre-sin and Jesus' post-res. bodies. So, in light of that what if the tree of knowledge was not a tree known to us but a tree of different properties. The forbidden tree could have even been a driad. Granted it may have been a "normal" kind of tree of and, only being one, was unable to reproduce itself (no tree of the opposite sex with which to cross pollinate) and thus became extinct upon its death. However, I find it odd (and using my own reason is a flaw in my logic) that we know no means by which an organic organism can produce a fruit capable of creating knowledge or inserting anything into our minds. Of course, they can alter chemical concentrations making it easier or harder to manipulate our minds ourselves but they can't insert knowledge. So, whose to say that other natural incorruptible beasts were created along with all the beasts? Why not faeries, and nymphs, and driads, and other creatures that show up in folklore around the world with which we no longer interact? We couldn't know for sure if we tried but it's an interesting notion!

One more quick note about the physicality of bodies. My use of the word "physical" is to describe a body which has all the physical properties that we can expect in a body. My use of the word "spirit" in describing Adam and Eve in their original state is to say that they may have had bodies (actual bodies) which do not share the same properties as our own. However, a spirit (made) of this world is still only of this world and confined to it. God is not a spirit of this world and is far from confined to it. Thus, we may assume that Jesus' resurrected body was not, in fact, the actual body and dimensions of God but the same earthly body Jesus had before but with the properties once possessed by Adam and Eve. In fact that may be exactly what we have in store for us upon our physical death, the same old body as before only incorruptible. Kinda makes you want to lose weight, eh?

I don't want anyone to take this or any of this discussion too seriously. We simply can't know more than what we're told. But I do think it a great deal of fun to hypothesize. :D

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Postby natman » Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:50 pm

Td,

Thanks for the clarification.

I suppose I could agree that Adam and Eve may have had different "physical" bodies before and after the fall, even apart from the fact that they had gone from incorruptible bodies to corruptible bodies. (I have often wondered whether they would have had canine teeth as it appeared that they were allowed to eat from any plant, but without death, they would not have eaten meat. Are there physiological differences such as hair, belly buttons, digestive tract etc.) Obviously they had different spirits, considering that they suffered a form of spiritual death.

However, even looking at Jesus' own resurrected body, it appears that it is one and the same as that which was crucified and buried in that it still carried the scars of the nails in His hands and feet as well as the hole in His side. Apart from the fact that He was Creator of the Universe, perhaps it is the matter of His incorrubtability that allowed Him to pass through doors, etc and finally physically ascend into Heaven. In it's incorruptable state, the "laws" of nature that would have acted against it in some detremental way had no affect.
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Postby dby » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:45 pm

jochanaan wrote:
dby wrote:...Perhaps we might visualize a teeter-totter with physicality over on the left and spirituality over on the right. Originally the majority of the weight was over on the side of spirituality. But right now the majority of the weight is over on the side of physicality. One day, the weight is again going to shift over to the side of spirituality...

Hmmm...I'm still thinking about your other points, but it seems more likely to me that Adam and Eve were made both body and spirit, in perfect balance.


Yes, I probably should have stated the idea of balance that way. I suppose I put the spiritual side as being where the "heavier weight" was prior to the Fall because our current view is so heavily tilted to the side of the physical. So, from our perspective down here in the realm of physicality, the perfectly balanced life looks like it is tilted way over to the side of spirituality. I'm still working my way through the concepts, so thank you for helping me to see it better.

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual; but are we not promised a new body--a heavenly body, granted, as I Corinthians 15 makes clear, but a body nonetheless?


Bringing the physical realm up into the heavenly realm - yes, I suppose that would be true. This sets me to thinking about the fact that before Creation there was probably no physical realm at all. The physical was a new thing that didn't previously exist. God formed the physical body of man using the dust of the ground, then He breathed into man's nostrils the Nashomah Chayah (Breath of Life - which roughly corresponds to the spirit of man) and man became a living Nephesh (soul - the "operating system" of the hardware).

When did the physical first enter into the Heavenly realm? Enoch?
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Postby SteveNTL » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:16 pm

jochanaan wrote: It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual...


I take exception to this, Jochanaan. I think perhaps you mean something like less holy or righteous, and sometimes the word "spiritual" is used to convey the meaning of holiness or righteousness, but such use in this discussion of the physical and spiritual makeup of humanity is confusing. Evil spirits are no less "spirit" or "spiritual" beings than other spirits. Mankind, in my mind, is unique in Gods' Kingdom, as a perfect meld of a physical being and spirit being, and Father gave us a universe to interface with. I think this is one of the things that spirit-only beings are so envious of, and perhaps one of the greatest components of a future "hell" - being a physical/spirit being, with an eternal body, but in a totally sensory-deprived condition. It seems to me, from what I see in the scriptures, that both our physical life and ability to access our spirit-life were diminished, perhaps equally, by the Fall.

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Postby jochanaan » Mon Aug 25, 2008 12:34 am

SteveNTL wrote:
jochanaan wrote: It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual...


I take exception to this, Jochanaan. I think perhaps you mean something like less holy or righteous, and sometimes the word "spiritual" is used to convey the meaning of holiness or righteousness, but such use in this discussion of the physical and spiritual makeup of humanity is confusing...

No, Steve, I did mean "less spiritual" in the sense of being less aware of things of the spirit, and the Spirit. Perhaps this was not so immediately after the Fall or for millennia afterward, but I have observed that many people these days simply aren't aware of the Spirit world at all--neither The Holy Spirit nor any other kind of spirit. It is true that the Devil, a spirit, has cultivated this lack of awareness, but the lack is real for most people.
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Postby dby » Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:12 am

jochanaan wrote:
SteveNTL wrote:
jochanaan wrote: It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual...


I take exception to this, Jochanaan. I think perhaps you mean something like less holy or righteous, and sometimes the word "spiritual" is used to convey the meaning of holiness or righteousness, but such use in this discussion of the physical and spiritual makeup of humanity is confusing...

No, Steve, I did mean "less spiritual" in the sense of being less aware of things of the spirit, and the Spirit. Perhaps this was not so immediately after the Fall or for millennia afterward, but I have observed that many people these days simply aren't aware of the Spirit world at all--neither The Holy Spirit nor any other kind of spirit. It is true that the Devil, a spirit, has cultivated this lack of awareness, but the lack is real for most people.


Yes, Francis Schaeffer wrote in "How Shall We Then Live" that the native aborigine engaged in animism has a better knowledge of the Universe as a whole than the atheist scientist. Because the native recognizes the existence and power of the spiritual realm, while the atheist scientist is missing that entire side of Reality.

I think mankind both was reduced spiritually and was blinded in part to the spiritual realm. Or perhaps it wasn't an actual reduction of his spiritual side but a bondage of it. The rabbis speak of sinful man being covered in Klippot ("husks") that have to be broken through and removed to restore relationship with God. Our sins add Klippot, and acceptance of Messiah's redemptive work has cut through the barriers. And His sacrifice continues to cut through those barriers as we continue to repent. We still see through a mirror dimly, but the time is coming when we shall see Him face to Face. Naturally the rabbis don't acknowledge that Messiah has come or the power of His Redemption (yet!) but beyond that their formula is the same. Repent, rely upon God's Grace, turn away from sin, work on correcting our lives so that we live righteously before Him.

From the Naturist perspective we would tend to look upon clothing as being a Klippah (husk) that can be shed. The rabbis wouldn't go there either. They would look upon nudity (except between man and wife) as being defiling. They don't even advise that a man and wife should ever have another woman come over to the house for a visit. They teach that man should never even look at a (clothed) woman who isn't his wife. It keeps him from making comparisons between his wife and another woman, it also reduces the chances of him coveting that which isn't his.
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Postby SteveNTL » Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:53 pm

jochanaan wrote:
SteveNTL wrote:
jochanaan wrote: It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual...


I take exception to this, Jochanaan. I think perhaps you mean something like less holy or righteous, and sometimes the word "spiritual" is used to convey the meaning of holiness or righteousness, but such use in this discussion of the physical and spiritual makeup of humanity is confusing...

No, Steve, I did mean "less spiritual" in the sense of being less aware of things of the spirit, and the Spirit. Perhaps this was not so immediately after the Fall or for millennia afterward, but I have observed that many people these days simply aren't aware of the Spirit world at all--neither The Holy Spirit nor any other kind of spirit. It is true that the Devil, a spirit, has cultivated this lack of awareness, but the lack is real for most people.


OK, I'm still confused - you use "spiritual" in the way I thought you intended (being less or more in tune with the spirit-side of our makeup), but that contradicts "no". At any rate, I think my point was missed. We were made with a spirit, and a body. We have no less spirit nature, ever. We may not be in touch with that nature, or even refuse to believe our being has a spirit-component, but that does not diminish the spirit-nature that God has given each human. We may be dull or "unconscious" in the ways of spirit-life, just as a lazy sluggard that can't seem to get out of bed is not making much use of the life of his body. But he still *has* a body and has a physical-being, just as he *has* a spirit and is a spirit-being.
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Postby SteveNTL » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:12 pm

jochanaan wrote:
SteveNTL wrote:
jochanaan wrote: It is true that since the Fall we have been less spiritual...


I take exception to this, Jochanaan. I think perhaps you mean something like less holy or righteous, and sometimes the word "spiritual" is used to convey the meaning of holiness or righteousness, but such use in this discussion of the physical and spiritual makeup of humanity is confusing...


No, Steve, I did mean "less spiritual" in the sense of being less aware of things of the spirit, and the Spirit. Perhaps this was not so immediately after the Fall or for millennia afterward, but I have observed that many people these days simply aren't aware of the Spirit world at all--neither The Holy Spirit nor any other kind of spirit. It is true that the Devil, a spirit, has cultivated this lack of awareness, but the lack is real for most people.


OK, I'm still confused - you use "spiritual" in the way I thought you intended (being less or more in tune with the spirit-side of our makeup), but that contradicts "no". At any rate, I think my point was missed. We were made with a spirit, and a body. We have no less spirit nature, ever. We may not be in touch with that nature, or even refuse to believe our being has a spirit-component, but that does not diminish the spirit-nature that God has given each human. We may be dull or "unconscious" in the ways of spirit-life, just as a lazy sluggard that can't seem to get out of bed is not making much use of the life of his body. But he still *has* a body and has a physical-being, just as he *has* a spirit and is a spirit-being.

In the context of this thread, "spirituality" seemed to be about having a spirit-nature, just as "physicality" seemed to be about having a physical-nature. Neither "nature" grows or diminishes (in the sense that you either have these natures or you don't, but all humans do), though one can perhaps become more or less aware of the nature.

Or have I missed something...

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Postby dby » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:34 pm

SteveNTL wrote:In the context of this thread, "spirituality" seemed to be about having a spirit-nature, just as "physicality" seemed to be about having a physical-nature. Neither "nature" grows or diminishes (in the sense that you either have these natures or you don't, but all humans do), though one can perhaps become more or less aware of the nature.

Or have I missed something...

Steve


Perhaps it is along the lines of: Adam was created as a spirit and that spirit *has* a physical body, but he lived and had connection to God in his spirit. But now men live as a physical body and the fact that the physical body *has* a spirit connected to it seems to be of little to no concern to them. Men now live as animals - having body and soul - while ignoring the spiritual all together. (Again, when I say "soul" I am referring to the "operating system" of the "hardware".)

I personally think that the spiritual nature has diminished from the pre-Fall Adam compared to a modern unregenerate man. Or perhaps the spirit has just been put into a "trash compactor" and diminished in volume, wrapped up in a husk that doesn't allow it to expand to its full potential, etc.
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Postby jochanaan » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:11 am

SteveNTL wrote:OK, I'm still confused - you use "spiritual" in the way I thought you intended (being less or more in tune with the spirit-side of our makeup), but that contradicts "no". At any rate, I think my point was missed. We were made with a spirit, and a body. We have no less spirit nature, ever. We may not be in touch with that nature, or even refuse to believe our being has a spirit-component, but that does not diminish the spirit-nature that God has given each human. We may be dull or "unconscious" in the ways of spirit-life, just as a lazy sluggard that can't seem to get out of bed is not making much use of the life of his body. But he still *has* a body and has a physical-being, just as he *has* a spirit and is a spirit-being.

In the context of this thread, "spirituality" seemed to be about having a spirit-nature, just as "physicality" seemed to be about having a physical-nature. Neither "nature" grows or diminishes (in the sense that you either have these natures or you don't, but all humans do), though one can perhaps become more or less aware of the nature.

Or have I missed something...

Steve

Point taken. You're right that the spiritual nature is still there in humans; we're just less in touch with it than we were once. :(
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Postby natman » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:13 am

As I understand it, we are comprised of three natures, body (physical body), soul (spiritual body) and spirit (mind, "who" we are). The essense of each of these remain constant apart from the period of time when our bodies return to the dust only to be resurrected and rejoined with our soul and our spirit at the end of time.

Throughout our existence we always have a spiritual "relationship" with God. However, we may have a good or broken spiritual "communion" with God.
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