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Are there any other issues that bother you about nudism / naturism not covered above? How can it be Christian? Other? Any question is acceptable, just keep the conversation courteous and respectful.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

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Postby Strandloper » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:20 am

Happy birthday to a wise young lady (if you will excuse its being two days early).
I have enjoyed reading your questions – they are well thought out.
I can confirm much of what Jochanaan, Sam and Nathan have written.
I also do not have the gift of tongues, but I have seen it used, and abused.
It is true that it is a gift not given to everyone, so it cannot be a sign of whether you are saved (or whatever other shibboleth is used of it).
As for the word shibboleth, ask your mom and dad. I am sure they can give you chapter and verse.
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Postby Webmaster » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:42 am

Well, since I wasn’t any help last time, let me help now.


Assersions should actually be assertions. That mean to assert, to stand firmly in a declared statement or belief.

Shibboleth (pronounced shib-uh-lith) comes from the Hebrew and is first found in Judges 12:4-6

Judges 12 wrote:4 Then Jephthah got together all the men of Gilead and made war on Ephraim; and the men of Gilead overcame Ephraim.
5 And the Gileadites took the crossing-places of Jordan against the Ephraimites; and when any of the men of Ephraim who had gone in flight said, let me go over; the men of Gilead said to him, Are you an Ephraimite? And if he said, No;
6 Then they said to him, Now say Shibboleth; and he said Sibboleth, and was not able to say it in the right way; then they took him and put him to death at the crossing-places of Jordan; and at that time forty-two thousand Ephraimites were put to death.


This was used as a test to determine of the man trying to cross was from Ephraim or not, simply because this is one of those words you would have to grow up hearing and saying to get right without making a mistake. When the men of Ephraim tried to say it, and could not, the men of Gilead knew they were from Ephraim, their enemy, and would kill him to prevent them from crossing into the lands of Gilead for protection or as spies.

As for the meaning of the word, in the Hebrew it means a few things. A raging river, an ear of corn, or a head of grain. Today it has a slightly different meaning in English. In English it has come to mean a custom or practice that betrays one as an outsider or a common saying or belief with little current meaning or truth, depending on how it is used.

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Postby Jon-Marc » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:30 am

Personally I think that's a poor way to determine who is who. What if a man had a speech impediment that prevented him from being able to say the "h"? As a young child I not only had a severe thanks to an abusive dad, but I also could not pronounce anything that started with an "s". Speech therapy at age 7 solved the problem with the letter "s' but not the stutter. I had that into my late 20's, and it still crops up at times.
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Postby natman » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:53 pm

Sunshine Girl wrote:K, maybe I’m a kid, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know some of this stuff. (BTW, I’m 13 until Thursday. :) ) Ever since I can remember mom and dad have always done bible readings with us kids after dinner. They explain things to us so we can understand it. I think we’ve gone through the bible like 20 times or something, but every time I learn something new. Am I different cause I wanna know about God and stuff? Guess so. I mean, most of the kids in the youth group at church don’t even know how to tell somebody about Jesus, and a few of them don’t get what he did for us. I mean, yeah, they know it in their head, but they don’t get it in their soul. It kindda ticks me off cause they just don’t seem to care too much.


SSG,

If you only knew how fortunate you are to have parents that want to take the time to train you up in the Word of God. Unfortunately, most parents are either too busy or are simply indifferent to teaching their children about the Bible. You are very lucky indeed.

SO I ask questions that most kids my age don’t ask. BFD, I just wanna know the answers.


How else do you think you will understand. Any teacher will tell you that the best students are the ones that are not afraid to ask questions when they do not understand something. Keep doing it it. Keep asking.

BTW, as a Christian, I would not use the abreviation "BFD". Some people equate it to mean "Big [a crude word for sexual relations] Deal", so I do not see it as an approproate phrase.

Sunshine Girl wrote:K, let me see if I got this. But…well, no, I don’t agree with everythign you’re saying, Nat. I mean, you say “As far as a particular gift being "the" evidence of salvation, I believe that God grants us all different gifts so that His glory is only completed whe we come together in corporate (group) worship as the "body" of Christ. In a "body" everyone cannot be a head. Every part of tne body is necessary for it to work properly.” I get that, and yeah, ok, I agree with it, but what about the gifts for showing the unsaved the power of God? I mean, how many times did the apostiles heal ppl that weren’t saved to show them God’s power? Didn’t that like lead them to be saved? Or am I missing it? Does that work?

This is what I mean. I got in my head, but I can’t get it out so it makes sense!


What I am trying to say is that something like "speaking in tongues" or any outward gift could be a sign" fo salvation, but it should not be considered "the sign" of salvation. In other words, if someone displays the true gift of speaking in tongues, they could be saved, but they may not necessarily actually be saved. By the same token, the fact that they do not display the gift of tongues does not necessarily mean that they are not saved. They could simply be gifted in some other area, such as the ability to teach.

See? That’s what I mean! Why does our church say that you GOT TO speak in tounges or you’re not really saved? That’s not right at all, is it?


That I do not know. It is an in-house debate.

K, but aren’t there some gifts that still count for today?... But what about healing?


I personally have strong opinions about what some congrgations refer to as 'speaking in tongues", so I will not talk about that right now. However, I believe that some of the gifts that were granted to the apostles are still in affect, but they are not "normative"... it doesn't occur everyday or every time someone petitions God for a healing. For example, I believe that "miraculous healing" still occurs, but it doesn't happen unless God wills that it would happen for His own glory and not for the glory of the person petitioning God for the healing. I have known people that have been diagnosed with certain cancers that have gone back to the doctor only to find that all evidence of that cancer is gone.

At the same time, I have know people that have had serious ailments, who, because of their ailments have led many, many other into a trusting relationship with Jesus Christ. Joni Ericson-Tada is a great example.

Sure there’s gonna be signs, but if you’re always ready what diff does it make? It’s like when I gotta clean my room for company. If my room’s always clean, then I don’t gotta try to get it ready for when they show up. That way if they just stop by it’s all good. Now Rambo…yeah, he’s a boy so I guess it’s different for him. :P


This is defintely where I think you are way wise beyond you years. Many adult Christins do not grasp this concept. They figure that they'll wait until they see the last signs to get right with God and others. The trouble is that the Bible says...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10 "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."

Meaning, when most are sleeping, in this case, unprepared, and quickly, without warning, in the blink of an eye.

So, continue keeping your room... and you life clean and ready for company, if you know Who I mean.

Well, when you got a mom and dad that teach you the truth, it helps. I kindda wonder about the parents that don’t take the time to do that. What’s God gonna say to them?


As parents ourselves, we ask ourselves that question CONSTANTLY. We realize that God has not only blessed us with children, He has also given us the responsibility to raise them so that they know who He is and so that they would desire to have a love relationship with Him. We want more than anything to be assured that they will make the decision to follow Jesus so that we will also be assured of seeing them in Heaven. We also want to know that when we stand before the throne of judgement we wil hear the words "Well done my good and faithful servant" and not "Get away from Me for I have never known you."

Geeezzz… I’m 13, k? If I could I’d post a pix just to show you, but mom and dad won’t let me.


I'm sorry SSG. It was probably me that first said you were 14. I remember reading that you had a birthday coming up and I thought I had missed it. My kids always corrected me when I inadvertently said that their age was what it was prior to their last birthday, but never when I added a year as their birthday approached.
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Postby jochanaan » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:59 pm

natman wrote:My kids always corrected me when I inadvertently said that their age was what it was prior to their last birthday, but never when I added a year as their birthday approached.

Funny how that works! :lol: But you know they're adults when they start doing the opposite. :?
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Postby natman » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:54 pm

jochanaan wrote:
natman wrote:My kids always corrected me when I inadvertently said that their age was what it was prior to their last birthday, but never when I added a year as their birthday approached.

Funny how that works! :lol: But you know they're adults when they start doing the opposite. :?


Ain't that the truth???

And there's another dynamic that happens at age 39... Isn't that right Jon Marc???
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Postby Sunshine Girl » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:49 pm

K, first thing.

natman wrote: BTW, as a Christian, I would not use the abreviation "BFD". Some people equate it to mean "Big [a crude word for sexual relations] Deal", so I do not see it as an approproate phrase.


Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way. I was saying “Big Flippin Deal” but, yeah, ok, I won’t use it again. Sorry. :oops:


natman wrote:
SSG,

If you only knew how fortunate you are to have parents that want to take the time to train you up in the Word of God. Unfortunately, most parents are either too busy or are simply indifferent to teaching their children about the Bible. You are very lucky indeed.


Thanks, Natman. :D

Dad always starts out saying “The bible tells us ‘Train up a child in the way he should go and when they are old they will not depart from it.’ We’re going to make sure we train you in the ways of God.” It gets kindda boring to hear him say that every night, but I guess it’s important to him and mom.

natman wrote:
SO I ask questions that most kids my age don’t ask. BFD, I just wanna know the answers.


How else do you think you will understand. Any teacher will tell you that the best students are the ones that are not afraid to ask questions when they do not understand something. Keep doing it it. Keep asking.


I’m gonna, but sometimes it kindda seems like they don’t know the answers. If they don’t know the answers then why are they teaching? Shouldn’t a teacher know a lot more then I do?

That’s why I’m asking here, cause I know you guys know a lot more than they do. Granddad’s the one who got me to asking things. He said “If you don’t know ask. If they don’t tell you the answer clearly, ask again.”

K, so you guys are like really helping me, really you are. I know I keep asking questions over and over but I wanna get it right in my head.


natman wrote:
Sunshine Girl wrote:K, let me see if I got this. But…well, no, I don’t agree with everythign you’re saying, Nat. I mean, you say “As far as a particular gift being "the" evidence of salvation, I believe that God grants us all different gifts so that His glory is only completed whe we come together in corporate (group) worship as the "body" of Christ. In a "body" everyone cannot be a head. Every part of tne body is necessary for it to work properly.” I get that, and yeah, ok, I agree with it, but what about the gifts for showing the unsaved the power of God? I mean, how many times did the apostiles heal ppl that weren’t saved to show them God’s power? Didn’t that like lead them to be saved? Or am I missing it? Does that work?

This is what I mean. I got in my head, but I can’t get it out so it makes sense!


What I am trying to say is that something like "speaking in tongues" or any outward gift could be a sign" fo salvation, but it should not be considered "the sign" of salvation. In other words, if someone displays the true gift of speaking in tongues, they could be saved, but they may not necessarily actually be saved. By the same token, the fact that they do not display the gift of tongues does not necessarily mean that they are not saved. They could simply be gifted in some other area, such as the ability to teach.


GOT IT! Thanks NM! Yeah, that’s what I mean, it’s just a gift that shows the Spirit of God is in you, right? Like the other gifts are? I’m asking here, just to make sure I’ve got it right.

Oh, something else. K, let me see if I can ask this right.

The gifts of the spirit are from God, but can Satan give ppl powers like that? I mean just to show off with or make ppl think that he’s more powerful than God?

natman wrote:
See? That’s what I mean! Why does our church say that you GOT TO speak in tounges or you’re not really saved? That’s not right at all, is it?


That I do not know. It is an in-house debate.

K, but aren’t there some gifts that still count for today?... But what about healing?


I personally have strong opinions about what some congrgations refer to as 'speaking in tongues", so I will not talk about that right now. However, I believe that some of the gifts that were granted to the apostles are still in affect, but they are not "normative"... it doesn't occur everyday or every time someone petitions God for a healing. For example, I believe that "miraculous healing" still occurs, but it doesn't happen unless God wills that it would happen for His own glory and not for the glory of the person petitioning God for the healing. I have known people that have been diagnosed with certain cancers that have gone back to the doctor only to find that all evidence of that cancer is gone.


K, another ? here. Aren’t all of the gifts given only to give God the glory? To help show ppl the power of God? Or did I miss it?

natman wrote: At the same time, I have know people that have had serious ailments, who, because of their ailments have led many, many other into a trusting relationship with Jesus Christ. Joni Ericson-Tada is a great example.


K, wait…Paul wrote something about his eyes being bad. Well, kindda. I just looked and in Gal 6:11 he says “See the size of the handwriting which I myself have made use of in writing to you.” Doesn’t that mean he’s got problems seeing or something and has to write in bigger letters? So ppl like Paul can still be used of God, right? (Sorry, I don’t know who Joni Ericson-Tada is.)

Oh! Hey, ever hear of Joel Sonnenburg? He got burned really bad when he was a kid, like three or something, and is a great minister for God.


natman wrote:
Sure there’s gonna be signs, but if you’re always ready what diff does it make? It’s like when I gotta clean my room for company. If my room’s always clean, then I don’t gotta try to get it ready for when they show up. That way if they just stop by it’s all good. Now Rambo…yeah, he’s a boy so I guess it’s different for him. :P


This is defintely where I think you are way wise beyond you years. Many adult Christins do not grasp this concept. They figure that they'll wait until they see the last signs to get right with God and others. The trouble is that the Bible says...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10 "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."

Meaning, when most are sleeping, in this case, unprepared, and quickly, without warning, in the blink of an eye.

So, continue keeping your room... and you life clean and ready for company, if you know Who I mean.

Well, when you got a mom and dad that teach you the truth, it helps. I kindda wonder about the parents that don’t take the time to do that. What’s God gonna say to them?


As parents ourselves, we ask ourselves that question CONSTANTLY. We realize that God has not only blessed us with children, He has also given us the responsibility to raise them so that they know who He is and so that they would desire to have a love relationship with Him. We want more than anything to be assured that they will make the decision to follow Jesus so that we will also be assured of seeing them in Heaven. We also want to know that when we stand before the throne of judgement we wil hear the words "Well done my good and faithful servant" and not "Get away from Me for I have never known you."

Geeezzz… I’m 13, k? If I could I’d post a pix just to show you, but mom and dad won’t let me.


I'm sorry SSG. It was probably me that first said you were 14. I remember reading that you had a birthday coming up and I thought I had missed it. My kids always corrected me when I inadvertently said that their age was what it was prior to their last birthday, but never when I added a year as their birthday approached.


Umm… yeah, it’s all good, but who told you I had a b’day coming up? I know mom had a heard when she read this (my saying I got one on Thursday) so I know she didn’t. But thanks. :D NP.

Let’s see…WM, yeah, thanks for that stuff about what the words mean. :D It helped this time. :P

Strandloper, thanks for the early b’day thing. :)

And thanks for everybody answering (or trying to answer) my ???s. At least I know I can ask them and get good answers.

K, now for one more question .

What’s worse: Soggy Corn Flakes or dry oatmeal?

:happyrazz:

BBFN!!

SSG :blowkiss:
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Postby Jon-Marc » Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:19 pm

Yes, Natmen, I've been 39 since 1985. :lol:
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Postby jochanaan » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:49 am

Sunshine Girl wrote:I’m gonna, but sometimes it kindda seems like they don’t know the answers. If they don’t know the answers then why are they teaching? Shouldn’t a teacher know a lot more then I do?

LOL That's what they'd like you to think! But the truth is they only know a little more than you do--and given your family, some of them probably know less about some things. (I can say these things because I'm a teacher myself, after a fashion; I'm a private music instructor as well as a player.)
Sunshine Girl wrote:The gifts of the spirit are from God, but can Satan give ppl powers like that? I mean just to show off with or make ppl think that he’s more powerful than God?

I don't think Satan can give people gifts, but he can use natural talents, including the occasional odd gift, to make it seem as if he can.
Sunshine Girl wrote:K, another ? here. Aren’t all of the gifts given only to give God the glory? To help show ppl the power of God? Or did I miss it?

No, you got that right; God gives gifts to build up His church and demonstrate His nature. If problems come, it's because we aren't perfect yet.
Sunshine Girl wrote:K, wait…Paul wrote something about his eyes being bad. Well, kindda. I just looked and in Gal 6:11 he says “See the size of the handwriting which I myself have made use of in writing to you.” Doesn’t that mean he’s got problems seeing or something and has to write in bigger letters? So ppl like Paul can still be used of God, right? (Sorry, I don’t know who Joni Ericson-Tada is.)

That's what most scholars think, and it's probably true.

Joni Eareckson-Tada is a woman who was paralyzed as a teenager in a diving accident. Since that time she has become an artist, painting with a brush she holds in her teeth, and a singer, and even got married after her paralysis (she is a quadriplegic; I have never heard she had any children). Many, many Christians prayed for her healing, but she is still in her wheelchair; yet she is a wonderful Christian witness. So yes, God can use people in their sicknesses or disabilities. And eventually, like the rest of us, she will be made perfect in Heaven.
Sunshine Girl wrote:K, now for one more question .

What’s worse: Soggy Corn Flakes or dry oatmeal?

Definitely soggy Corn Flakes. Dry oatmeal actually isn't bad. Besides, you can cook dry oatmeal, but you can't un-sog soggy corn flakes. :lol:
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Postby natman » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:28 pm

Sunshine Girl wrote:Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way. I was saying “Big Flippin Deal” but, yeah, ok, I won’t use it again. Sorry. :oops:


In this case, "flippin" is what we call a substitutionary word. Meaning, we are trying to convey the same image with the phrase without actually using a "bad" word. We are trying to teach our kids not to even use "substitutionary" words and phrases because they can later translate in the the "actual" phrase. Substitutionary words include words and phrases like, "freakin'", "gosh darn", "gosh dang", "cr_p", "ars", "bung" etc. Use of these words and phrases, and all actual foul language actually display our ignorance in that it shows that we have a limited vocabulary.

Instead, we should use proper adjectives and adverbs to describe someone or something, preferably those that are not degrading.

natman wrote:Keep asking.

I’m gonna, but sometimes it kindda seems like they don’t know the answers. If they don’t know the answers then why are they teaching? Shouldn’t a teacher know a lot more then I do?


Yes, they should. But you must also remember that ALL humans are finite creatures, and even the most scholarly do not have ALL the answers.

The Bible is both extremely simple and at the same time extremely complexed to understand. People have spent entire lives studying every passage and every verse and still have questions.

So, don't expect your parents, your Sunday School teacher, pastor pastor or even your Christian university professor to have all the answers. However, the proper response when they don't know or aren't absolutely certain about an answer is "I don't know the answer to that question, but I will do my best to find out for you and get back to you."

That’s why I’m asking here, cause I know you guys know a lot more than they do.


Please don't assume that. Indeed, there is some very wise counsel here. However, WHATEVER we may tell you, you should ALWAYS test what we say in light of scripture, then hold on to what is true.

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

GOT IT! Thanks NM! Yeah, that’s what I mean, it’s just a gift that shows the Spirit of God is in you, right? Like the other gifts are? I’m asking here, just to make sure I’ve got it right.


Yes, I believe you do.

The gifts of the spirit are from God, but can Satan give ppl powers like that? I mean just to show off with or make ppl think that he’s more powerful than God?


Satan cannot give you any powers or do any physical harm to you unless God Himself allows Satan to do so, as in the life Job. Nether can any of the other angels (Satan is a fallen angel). They cannot have sex with you or "force" you to do anything. They are not omnicient (all knowing) or omni-present etc.

If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the ONLY thing that Satan or any of his dominion can do is whisper in your ear, in other words, tempt you do act against your Holy conscience.

Also, once saved, neither Satan nor any of his demons can "posess" you.

Matthew 12:28-30 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."

Basically, once the Holy Spirit, which is far more powerful than any demon, resides in you, the demon would have to overcome the Holy Spirit in order to posess you... which is impossible.

I remember reading a verse that says essentially that a person cannot be indwelt by both the Holy Spirit AND a demon. As long as the Holy Spirit is present, demons will flee. However, if for some reason, the Spirit leaves, (blaspheme of the Spirit occurs), even more demons will come to take its place. (See. This is one of those areas where I will have to say "I'll get back to you on that.")

Ah!!! I found it...

Matthew 12:43-45 ""When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."

K, another ? here. Aren’t all of the gifts given only to give God the glory? To help show ppl the power of God? Or did I miss it?


Absolutely. However, even the gifts given by God can be misused because we are all sinners. My favorite example is music. Music can be used in worship to lift praises up to the lord. It can also be used to attract us to earthly passions and perversions. Food can be eaten to the glory of God. At the same time, we can make food our God, becoming gluttons. Even oour naked bodies can be used to glorify God, or they can be used distract others from God through immoral activities.

Oh! Hey, ever hear of Joel Sonnenburg? He got burned really bad when he was a kid, like three or something, and is a great minister for God.


Yes. He has an AMAZING witness and testamony.
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