Division

Are there any other issues that bother you about nudism / naturism not covered above? How can it be Christian? Other? Any question is acceptable, just keep the conversation courteous and respectful.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

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Division

Postby dune_nude » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:40 am

Hello all,

One of the few things that put me at ill-ease with naturism is division - division between church bodies and division between spouses. Basically, how can something so supposedly good do so much damage in the church and family/spousal contexts? Is it because by-and-large our society (and thus our churches and families) are not yet ready to accept naturism? Are they simply uninformed?

My opinion is this: there is a lot of good things about the ideals and philosophy of nudism but unfortunately (like any ideology) what is put in practice doesn't always live up to the ideal. There are plenty of people who spoil what true naturism is about and unfortunately that is what paints peoples' views of it.

Naturally,
Sean
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Re: Division

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:18 am

I am going to take a risk and try to answer your question.

You asked...

Basically, how can something so supposedly good sometimes do [or if discovered has the possibily of doing] so much damage in the church and family/spousal contexts?

Honestly, a warning bell went off in my head when I read this... Not toward you but toward naturism. But then...

I remembered Matt 10:34-35 which says:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—


The point of bringing up this passage IS NOT to try, in any way equate nudity with salvation or Christ. It IS, however, an attempt to address your question by showing that Christ, the good and perfect Christ, does cause that sort of division within families. We see this more in non-Christian cultures then Christian cultures where becoming a follower of Christ can get you thrown out of the family or worse, killed (depending on your perpective on eternity, this actually may be a better thing?).

No, you are right, the society around us is not ready to accept this, at least if you are in America (and many other countries). Much of this is due to mis-understanding of scriptures as well as those who have not represented nudism well, either by those trying to sesexualize it or by those trying to demonize it for their own purposes.
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Postby bn2bnude » Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:35 am

Also, I thought about this while I was in the shower....

What are some of the other devisive issues floating around the church...

Things like:
Style of worship
Gifts of the spirit
Version of the Bible
Celebrate Christmas
Celebrate Christmas instead of going to church (as in this year)
End-times (Revelation) viewpoint.

The list goes on and on... So, if we start worrying about things that are devisive, there are quite a few targets out there and, yes, they split families and churches apart, I have wittnessed this.

The problem is not the issue itself, it is the fact that we have forgotten what Christ calls the Greatest Commandments... 1) Love the Lord... and 2) Love your neighbor.

One reason I don't broadcast my preference for clothing-optional enjoyment is that I love my neighbors and do not want to put them through the struggle that may cause.
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Postby natman » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:03 pm

I believe that the problem come from us relying on the "traditions of man" instead of on the Word of God. Here is an example when we, like the Pharisees, create our own traditions (religion)...

Mark 7:5-13
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down.


Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."

Here are some key verses that deal with this in general...


1 Thes. 5:21
"Test everything. Hold on to that which is good."

Acts 17:11
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character then the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Isa 5:20
“but woe to those who call evil good, and good evil."

Rev 22:18-19
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book

From studying scripture in depth, we see that shame of our bodies, God's own image, was NEVER God's idea. It was something created by man in a vane attempt to cover his own sin, something that can ONLY be done by the blood of our Savior and Redeemer, Christ Jesus.

Like bn2bnude pointed out, there are many areas of division within the church. Some things are debatable within the pale of orthodoxy; sprinkle or dunk; praise and worship or hymns; creation in seven literal 24-hour days or seven day-ages; dispensational or covenantal; pre-trib; mid-trip or post-trib; Saturday or Sunday worship. Some things are down-right heretical; holy laughter; false prophecy (or false profiting); inclusion of new-age philosophies; giving-to-get; slain-in-the-spirit and on and on.

Christian naturism SHOULD simply be Christianity without all the trappings, in all of it's richness and glory.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Postby LivingFree » Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:28 pm

I'd like to add my perspective to this question. I think, also, that:

1. People come to understand the fullness of God's truth (called Christian growth) at different rates of speed, and

2. Some people are so constructed internally that once they get set on a particular view they stay there, and won't / can't change again.

On the first point, is 2 Peter 3:18, But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Notice the need to grow in two areas; grace, and knowledge. Now, take the area of knowledge, first. It takes a lifetime to learn. We start our little children out with reciting the alphabet, learning to count, and many other things. Then there's grade school, followed by high school, college for many, or trade school, and graduate school for some. Ever wonder why math gets repeated every year, but always gets a bit harder? Why not just dump it all into the first grade and be done with it? Because it takes a long time to learn it all. Learning something that society says we should learn is hard enough; learning something that society says is taboo is a lot harder. There are many sub-cultures in our society, all of which have different ideas of how to live life. They attach moral (faith) value to their views. Trying to overcome those views creates great resistance within many persons.

I can give you a very painful personal experience. Some time ago I shared with my two adult children about my discovery of the purity of naturism. They reacted with strong negative emotion. They didn't take the time to think it through; we had trained them from infancy to keep their bodies covered at all times, and now, 40 years later, it was so deeply ingrained that they couldn't overcome the emotional resistance to it. They do at least accept me in my views, but aren't even willing to talk about it openly with me.

On the second point, we all know people who, when they encounter something new, say "Yeah, that's cool." And there are others who immediately react by saying "No way. Never." When you ask them why, they just shake their heads. IOW, they are "scripted." The grooves in their psyche are so deep that there's no way to change them.

Take, for example, the controversy in the Book of Acts (the Early Church) over circumcision. The Apostle Paul was among those who said "Yeah, we don't need it for salvation." Peter was among those who resisted until he had the epiphany with the sheets full of clean and unclean animals coming down from heaven and a voice that said, "Rise, Peter, kill and eat." The conservative Jewish believers, some of whom were converted Pharisees, who opposed Paul and Barnabas in Antioch were among those who said "No way. Never." Eventually Paul simply insisted on the new way, taught all his Gentile churches the new way, and as the church became more and more Gentile the teaching of circumcision as a need for salvation fell away.

Another example is nude baptism. The concept was inherited from the OT, where ritual washing for purification of all sorts of pollution was required, and was always nude and not often in private. So with the baptisms of John and Jesus, as people went down to the water for baptism off came the garment, into the water they went, and after baptism put on the garment again. (It was also very practical. With no second garment to change into, why get the one garment wet that they'd have to wear after the baptism?) This mode of baptism continued well into the 3rd century, until a certain bishop in Constantinople, I believe, became uncomfortable with the practice, and banned it in his diocese. That ban spread until it influenced the whole church.

Let me summarize. Part of the image of God in humanity is the ability to be free -- to make up our own minds on things. The rest of the animal world can't do that. So Adam and Eve had the right of decision making, and chose to sin. We all have the right to make our own decisions about all things in life. Our brains work in many different ways, from a biological, chemical pov. All this diversity in life is both enriching and very frustrating. It is so very important to grow in the grace of our Lord, not only in knowledge. That's the only way we can get along with so much diversity in life.
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Postby natman » Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:25 pm

Something else that I have learned is that some people see Christianity as nothing more than a set of rules, "Do"s and "Don't"s, and that is where they are most comfortable. "Just give me the rules and don't bother me with the specifics."

They don't have faith as much as they have religion. I religiously shower, shave and brush my teeth every day, but that's not going to get me into Heaven. To them, if something SOUNDS religions, then it MUST be from God. THAT is were we get so many sects and cults today.

From what I see, most of us here prefer to have a "relationship" with the one true God of the universe, and not simply a religious experience.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Re: Division

Postby jochanaan » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:18 pm

dune_nude wrote:Basically, how can something so supposedly good do so much damage in the church and family/spousal contexts?

The damage is done, not by naturism, but by others' reactions to it. Is it we who have embraced what appears to be the true Biblical teaching that cause division, or those who hold to societal norms? :?:
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Postby Jon-Marc » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:18 pm

There is a BIG difference in believing that there is a God and actually KNOWING Him. Not everyone who believes there is a God has personally known Him and have no idea what it's like to have a close relationship with Him.
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Postby Jon-Marc » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:19 pm

I clicked one time too many and submitted the same post twice. I couldn't delete it so I just erased the writing of the second post. We need a way to delete when we double-post.
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Postby natman » Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:38 pm

Jon-Marc wrote:There is a BIG difference in believing that there is a God and actually KNOWING Him.


Satan, Lucifer, Bealzebub, whateer name he goes by certainly is a good example. He saw God face to face, but didn't KNOW Him.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby Alfie » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:22 pm

What splits churches is not the substance of there issues but that so many so called christians are still babies in their faith. They have not grown into any sort of spiritual maturity, they know heaps, but have not grown the fruits of the spirit.
There is a need for all christians to show to each other the same GRACE that God has, is and will show to us.
There has and always will be devisive issue, the test of churches and christians is how we confront them and how we treat each other through that confontation and when we realise that we have different views on these issue. Let grace prevail.

In our church we have a wide range of tastes in music; some prefer NIV over KJV or other version of the bible; some tithe others don't; some can accept female pastors other don't like the idea; etc etc, but each 'camp' is prepared to accept the other's differences of opinion and to accept the other people with love and grace. This does not mean we don't still research and discuss the issues when they arise; we still seek the absolute truth in these matters, (if it is to be found).

These issues are not worth breaking up the family for.
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Postby Strandloper » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Hi, Sean –
you ask: “Basically, how can something so supposedly good do so much damage in the church and family/spousal contexts?”
You have had several well-thought-through answers.
But it is worth saying again: it is not that naturism is wrong, but that it is seen to be wrong from within the Church.
LF mentioned a bishop of Constantinople in the 3rd century who banned nude baptisms – this means that for 1700 years the enemy has insidiously been teaching the faithful that being nude is sinful.
That’s a lot of damage to undo. No wonder I get so much flak from my wife. No wonder my friends tell me that nude baptism might be right in theory, but it could never work in today’s world.
Satan has today’s world right where he wants it, doesn’t he? Well, he has never managed to get the better of the Lord, even if he has managed to get the better of a great number of Christians.
We must simply carry on telling the truth as we know it, and trust the Lord that others also will see it.
Shalom,
Strandloper
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Postby Jon-Marc » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:07 pm

I once heard of a church that split over what color the new carpet should be. Many left the church because they couldn't have the color they wanted.
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Postby LivingFree » Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:08 pm

Strandloper wrote:LF mentioned a bishop of Constantinople in the 3rd century who banned nude baptisms – this means that for 1700 years the enemy has insidiously been teaching the faithful that being nude is sinful.
That’s a lot of damage to undo. No wonder I get so much flak from my wife. No wonder my friends tell me that nude baptism might be right in theory, but it could never work in today’s world.


Somewhere on this website is an image of nudes in an airport. I printed out that photo and showed it to my wife. She chuckled. Then I showed it to friends of ours who know about my home nudity but don't engage in it themselves. They chuckled also, but I doubt they'll drop their clothes any time soon. But's it fun just planting seeds in a humorous way.

The other night my wife saw several naturist images on my laptop, including several males. Her immediate response was, they don't even turn me on. My answer was, they're not supposed to. Naturists don't share images for sexual excitation; they share them just to show how comfortable and natural naturism is. She still doesn't quite get it. Yes, 1700 years of negative internal programming is lots of "code" to rewrite.

Jon-Marc, you may have to send the webmaster a PM about the delete post issue. I'm sure he could put it up if someone asked him.
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Postby natman » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:02 am

LivingFree wrote:
Strandloper wrote:The other night my wife saw several naturist images on my laptop, including several males. Her immediate response was, they don't even turn me on. My answer was, they're not supposed to...

She still doesn't quite get it. Yes, 1700 years of negative internal programming is lots of "code" to rewrite.


Based on her response, maybe she's starting to.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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