Division

Are there any other issues that bother you about nudism / naturism not covered above? How can it be Christian? Other? Any question is acceptable, just keep the conversation courteous and respectful.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

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Postby dune_nude » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:10 pm

I guess I was trying to focus more on the spousal division issue. It seems to me like convincing someone to try naturism is a lot like convincing them to explore Christianity or attend church with them instead of try some outdoor recreational activity if they are not an outdoors type. Should we be asking them to change their lifestyle or simply try a new form of recreation and leisure? Or a little of both?

With Sarah I (not thinking about it much) asked her to try nude recreation - swimming, relaxing, horseshoes, etc. and didn't really mention the lifestyle aspect of it. Interestingly enough, she naturally became interested in naturism by first trying nude recreation. I don't know if that's coincidental or not, or if it's some magic formula (probably not), but I thought I'd share it nonetheless.
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Postby jochanaan » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:06 pm

You may be on to something, Sean. The words "nudist" and "naturist" are loaded these days; seems a lot of people who might be open to innocent nudity don't like what they think they know about nudists...but when they realize, "Hey! This is cool!" they just might be open to the full-time aspects.
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Postby natman » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:18 pm

dune_nude wrote:Should we be asking them to change their lifestyle or simply try a new form of recreation and leisure?


I have a hard time when people refer to a change in "lifestyle" when they become involved in naturism. The only difference that I see is that we don't have clothing on. Other than that, we do everything exactly the same.

Even when people come into our homes, we take care not to offend them with our natural comforts. I mean, we don't always do the things we would do normally when no one else is around that are natual and comfortable such as belching, passing gas, scratching certain areas etc. Similarly, if someone comes over that we think just MIGHT be uncomfortable with simple nudity, we throw something on.
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Postby LivingFree » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:13 pm

natman wrote:I have a hard time when people refer to a change in "lifestyle" when they become involved in naturism.


I wonder if just using the term "lifestyle' doesn't conjure up for some people weird, and even taboo practices? Perhaps we harm ourselves more by using that term than others? I prefer saying I live clothing free when it's appropriate and not offensive to anyone. That's not really a lifestyle change. I used to wear coat and tie when I went to church; now I wear pants and open shirt. I used to wear black leather shoes, now I wear sandals, except in winter. I used to be clean shaven; now I wear a full beard. Are all of these lifestyle changes, or merely style differences? I think it makes a subtle difference.
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Postby scurtis » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:54 pm

Livingfree

I think you might be onto something there. I have used the term lifestyle when referring to naturism frequently. But I also use it when referring to other orientations too. In an attempt at humor, I used it when referring to a hobby in the Men's Only Section. By your definition, many times it did not fit into what I was saying.

I brings to mind where we were warned in the Bible that our tongues should be watched (Psalm 34:13, 1 Peter 3:10). Even our choice of words can be misleading.

Just over 5 years ago I changed jobs. My style of dress changed with it. I used to wear jeans and a button down shirt, now I wear slacks and a dress shirt. This carried over into my Sunday attire. Although I realised this, I had never given it much thought until I read your post. Makes me wonder how my manor of dress has affected others opinion (not that it matters)

As I have stated in earlier posts, I have not experienced social nudity. My "manor of dress" would not make a difference there.
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Postby Jon-Marc » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:17 pm

I also have a problem with the word "lifestyle" since homosexuality is called a lifestyle. There's a big difference between that perverted lifestyle and living one's life clothes-free.
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Postby jochanaan » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:34 am

scurtis wrote:My "manor of dress" would not make a difference there.

You have a manor? I only have a walk-in closet. :mrgreen:
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Postby Sunshine Girl » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:25 pm

K, I know I'm not as smart as you guys are, but I wanna try to learn, so I've got some ?? I wanna ask. If they sound stupid that's cause they are. :oops:

I got the first part where you were talking about the divisions in the church. We live in this really small town and there's like 20 different churches here! We go to the AOG a couple miles away. I like it, but I don't think everything they teach is right. Yeah, I try to figure it out, but things like the gifts are kindda hard to wrap my mind around. How do we know if we have gifts and which ones?

I get picked on 'cause I ask so many ?? all the time, but I wanna know, KWIM?

I get that God sent Jesus to die for our sins, and that he's not in the grave. I know he's gonna come back and take us to heaven someday, and that's cool. But why do ppl fight over when that's gonna happen? I mean, who cares when? I kindda think we should be ready for it whenever, right? We could all go nuts trying to figure out when and all that.

K, got off on a side thing there. Sorry.

So what I wanted to ask is aren't we supposed to all be of the same mind if we're Saved? Why are there so many ppl that fight over stupid things? Like the right way to tell somebody about Jesus. Is there just one way to tell them or not? I don't think there is cause, well, everybody needs to be told in a differnt way, right?

It's like telling people about being nudists. Buttefly just blurts it out, but I don't wanna tell everybody, just some ppl I know won't freak over it. You can't just go up to somebody and say "Hi I'm a nudist and you should be one too." You can't do that when telling ppl about Jesus, right? You gotta know somehting about them and how Jesus can help them.

Dad loves to use Roman's Road (I think that's what it's called) but not everbody gets it. But I watch Mom when she's telling somebody about Jesus and she asks questions first, gets to know them a little bit. Like the other day when we went shopping. We had a ton of food and stuff so the guy that was bagging the stuff helped us take it out. When we're going out to the car she asks him how long he'd been working there and then if he was married (he was like 30 or somthing I think.) And then she asks him where he goes to church. He said he doesn't go anymoer cause the church he was going to wasn't helping him. So she asks what they taught and he told her about their teaching about Jesus, but nothing else.

So she invites him to our church telling him that it might be what he's looking for then she prays for him right there in the parking lot! I wish I could do that, just pray for somebody anytime any where.

So I forgot where I was going with this. :?

If I remember I'll come back. My brain's fried from a week of school. :happyrazz:

K...so...yeah.

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Postby bn2bnude » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:07 am

You know, the divisions and denominational thing frustrates me quite a bit too.

On the other hand, I am slowly coming to realize that there are those seperations because people are different. Where things get sad is when they happen inside a church.

What makes this site cool and welcoming is that in spite of our differiing views on many things, there are basic things we all agree on. The primary one is that Jesus came and gave his life for us so that we could be adopted into God's family.

I am seeing a lot of smaller churches pop up in my area which are quite specialized, reaching out to cultural groups. Take, for instance, the Scum Of The Earth Church. I am sure that there are a lot of people who would not be comfortable in this setting. The people that attend there, I am sure, would not feel comfortable in a very traditional church.

What can you say about Gifts? There are books out there to help you discover your gift(s). I personally feel that your talents and gifts will compliment each other,


As far as when Jusus comes again? I don't know and choose not to try to hurry things along.
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Re: Division

Postby MatthewNeal » Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:23 am

dune_nude wrote:One of the few things that put me at ill-ease with naturism is division - division between church bodies and division between spouses. Basically, how can something so supposedly good do so much damage in the church and family/spousal contexts?
Alright... let me put in my 2 cents!

Lots of people have been writing some pretty good perspectives, but I'd like to add a slightly different spin on it all.

I walked our Worship Team through Eph. 4 this week. There's some great stuff in there about living with others in wholsome relationship, unity and love.

Like v. 3 "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

We so often make very little effort to keep the unity of the Spirit. I think that often we count our little pet issues (I'm not talking about any specific issue at the moment!) as somehow more important than the unity of the Spirit. We often count someone hurting us as more important than unity! And we count "being right!!!" as more important than unity!

So in the case of nudism, people on both sides can be so distracted by the issue that they forget to make "every effort" to maintain unity!

(as an aside, I think that's the primary reason most of us choose to keep silent about our convictions, because we know that telling others would most likely result in DISunity! We're not ashamed, but we are prudent!)

Then v.27 "and do not give the devil a foothold."

This is written within the context of avoiding bitterness and dealing with anger, but my point is that we have a real enemy who is eager to disrupt our relationships. Disunity is his goal.

The enemy is actually defeated as we know... utterly crushed by the Cross of Christ. Therefore he no longer has any jurisdiction over a believer. But he does still have one weapon left, and he wields it with great skill. That weapon is the LIE. When he can get us to believe a lie, we will act or respond according to the lie instead of the truth. When we do that, we have unwittingly done the enemy's will. That's the end result of believing a lie!

Now, back to the opening question... we need to clarify that the division that results from conflicts over nudity ultimately come because one or both parties are believing lies. Lies about the body, lies about naturism, lies about the need to "be right," lies about others, lies about unity being more important than issues!!

Division happens because the centrality of truth has been compromised (usually on BOTH sides of the issue!). Remember that Jesus said that truth would set us free! When truth reins, unity is maintained.

So, perhaps until people are more open to the truth about naturism, it is best that we wait upon the Lord and let him guide us to those who might be more open to this particular truth. That's one way we can "make every effort" to preserve our unity with other believers.

Now between spouses, I really don't know what to say. I really feel for those of you who are naturist without the support of your spouse. In my case, it was not a personal preference that I urged my wife to accept, but rather a change of approach to raising our kids that we discussed and prayed about, then agreed together to embrace. She still tends to be somewhat "reluctant" in her personal habits, but supportive of the concept for the health of our children. I could wish that all of you could have entered into it as a couple like we did. This way, we are teammates instead of adversaries on the issue.

Matt
Last edited by MatthewNeal on Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby scurtis » Sat Sep 30, 2006 2:17 am

jochanaan wrote: You have a manor? I only have a walk-in closet.


I haven't checked this thread for a while so a belated answer. No manor house, no walk-in closet, just a few extra bedrooms. Does that count? Perhaps type of dress would have been better. My error points to what I was saying about the words we choose.


On a more serious note. I think that the reply of MatthewNeal is also an excellent answer to a post by CCM re: telling the truth about our naturism.
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Postby Webmaster » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:59 am

Jon-Marc wrote:I clicked one time too many and submitted the same post twice. I couldn't delete it so I just erased the writing of the second post. We need a way to delete when we double-post.



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Postby jochanaan » Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:00 am

Very quickly (I'm on my way to church), unity does not equal uniformity. It's like an orchestra: the violins don't play flute parts, nor do trumpets play bass parts, and it's easy enough for each instrumentalist to think s/he's the most important one--yet if they play at the right times, in tune, with good expression, and listen to the others around them--then you have a great symphony! :D All we need to do is look at the score (the Bible) and watch the Conductor, and we can be unified in our diversity. Of course, some things are constants, like standard pitch. (That's why my instrument, the oboe, is the most important! I give the pitch. :mrgreen: That's a joke, of course; I really am no more or less important than any other instrument in the orchestra.)
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Postby SteveNTL » Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:52 pm

jochanaan wrote:Very quickly (I'm on my way to church), unity does not equal uniformity. It's like an orchestra: the violins don't play flute parts, nor do trumpets play bass parts, and it's easy enough for each instrumentalist to think s/he's the most important one--yet if they play at the right times, in tune, with good expression, and listen to the others around them--then you have a great symphony! :D All we need to do is look at the score (the Bible) and watch the Conductor, and we can be unified in our diversity. Of course, some things are constants, like standard pitch. (That's why my instrument, the oboe, is the most important! I give the pitch. :mrgreen: That's a joke, of course; I really am no more or less important than any other instrument in the orchestra.)


Good example, J ! Thanks. And you ARE funny. Everyone knows the tuba is the main cornerstone of the orchestra.

Steve
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Postby Strandloper » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:56 pm

Wires crossed there. I wish I could get such a positive response about nudity from my wife!
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