Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Are there any other issues that bother you about nudism / naturism not covered above? How can it be Christian? Other? Any question is acceptable, just keep the conversation courteous and respectful.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, natman, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby Maverick » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Awhile back I googled "Christian naturism" just to see what else was cropping up in the search results. I found an article on a site called The Marriage Bed (which I hadn't heard of before) written by a Christian who was once a Christian nudist. I think he raises some interesting points but I'm curious to see what everyone here thinks.



http://site.themarriagebed.com/bible/scriptural-applications/christian-nudism
Naked for Christ? Christian Nudism
Anonymous
Guest Author

We get occasional questions about or from "Christian nudists." We think the Bible is clear that nudity is to be limited to the marriage relationship, but since no single verse says this it's not always easy to "prove" this point. The following was received from a gentleman who spent two years involved in "Christian naturism" several years ago. Having "been there" and "done that" the individual can speak to the issue more directly than we can, and he makes a strong case against nudism for Christians. The author, who wishes to remain anonymous, said he wanted to help others "so they don't make the same foolish choice I did."

Since this article was originally published, we have received a great deal of comments and criticism about it. Many have written to say that what the author of this article experienced was not the norm - the author freely admits that this may be the case, as his exposure to nudism (sorry, couldn't resist) was limited to a small number of groups in one area. Frankly we see these things a straw men that have no bearing on the large issues the author raises.

Paul & Lori


Note: Paul and Lori are apparently the site owners/administrators. They did not write the article.


I also agree with you that Christian nudism is not a good idea, but not for the reasons you give. Your reasons would be easily dismissed by someone involved with Christian nudism. The problem with addressing this topic is that the Bible really doesn't condemn it. Christian naturists can argue that the problem is not with what they are doing, but with the way society reacts to it. This is true, but how do we wish to change society? Do we want to make them all nudists, or make them all Christians?

First off, it really is not about sex (for most). There are some men who get interested for the wrong reasons, but they are soon disappointed. Where single men are welcome they outnumber the women at least 3 to 1, often more (10 to 1). And the women there are part of a couple. Many places have quotas to maintain gender balance.

This leads to the first big, big problem with social nudism in general: It becomes a wedge that drives spouses apart. Almost universally it is the man who becomes interested in this, and almost universally the woman is opposed. They even have a name for this. It is called "the reluctant spouse syndrome." Naturists are constantly trying to figure out how to get more women involved. The man may become obsessed with naturism and go without his spouse. This causes many family problems. Many of the women who do participate with their man do not really want to, but are dragged into it and realize they might get divorced if they don't go along. I met many naturist men who were on wife number 2 or 3, all because the previous spouse refused to get involved. This is the reason they gave me, not my own opinion. And it is very important to have a female companion. Even though it is not about sex, you do not want to be the single male. You are then an outsider. You are excluded from many clubs and events. You are treated with suspicion when allowed to participate. When you do get to participate you are with the many, many other single men who are "off to the side." Many of these men are homosexuals. Most of the couples are at the club that won't let singles in, so all the single guys wind up together where they are welcomed. So the first real problem with Christian nudism is it harms marriages. Those involved are so "into" it that they will deny this point. I speak from experience. I have heard the many, many stories of family problems. Real life stories, not theory.

The second big problem is the effect on your Christian witness and ministry. There are two kinds of Christian naturists. Those who "keep the big secret," and those who don't. Let's look at what happens to the secret naturists first.

They find they cannot trust the other members of their church. They have to make up excuses for where they were last weekend. They don't invite Church friends to their home. Their real friends are their nudist friends. After I became good friends with several Christian nudist couples I learned they were using false names at the clubs and on the Internet. When they came to trust me they told me their real names. The secret keepers have to get the kids involved in keeping the secret also. They come to see Christian brothers and sisters as potential judges. They tend not to get involved with church activities, or to cease to be involved. Some quit practicing "organized religion" and just pray to God and read the Bible for themselves. They know those narrow minded folks at that church would not understand their freedom.

And they are correct. Those who are open about their nudism find they are judged at their church. I know of one couple who were very active in youth ministries. Nudism eventually led to their quitting that church (which had a very dim view of nudism) and moving to another where they were not involved with youth (and where they kept their secret). I know of another couple who were very involved with the music ministry at their church. When their nudist beliefs became known they were told they could not be involved with any church ministries until they repented. They quit, looked for a new church for a short time, and last time I spoke to them they are practicing their religion at home only. I know of another couple who told their pastor, he disapproved so they now attend a church that is farther away. They no longer fellowship with the Christians of their own local community, but drive to where their secret is not known.

Jesus prayed for unity in the body. I have seen nudism cause disunity in Christian fellowship and trouble in Christian marriages. Paul said to lay aside every weight or hindrance and run the race set before us. Nudism is such a hindrance. I have heard several Christians tell me how nudism ended their involvement in ministry. (Of course they didn't see it as a problem with nudism, but as a problem with narrow minded people who just didn't understand how wonderful nudism was.) I have seen nudism wreck a person's witness. You are viewed as a crack pot and nothing you say about faith will be listened to.

I could tell you other stories also. I know a woman who was very upset that her young niece, of whom she was very fond, was no longer allowed to visit them at their home when extended family found out her husband had become a nudist. I know of another woman whose sister will not visit her after she and her husband became nudists. The breaking up of family ties is not good fruit.

Remember earlier when I said it is not about sex for most nudists? For many it is. About 40% of nudists are swingers. This is something Christian nudists just have to live with. You will get invited to swing if you are part of a couple and frequent different resorts. You just say no and they leave you alone. But you will be asked. Another 40% of nudists think the 40% that swing give the whole lifestyle a bad name. These two groups are at odds with each other over the direction that nudism in America should take, but since their overall numbers are so small they feel they need to get along with each other. But the idea of acceptance is just nice talk on web sites and in magazines. The swingers, gays, pagans (nudism is often part of their skyclad religion), and Christians don't like each other, they just tolerate each other. (These numbers came from a reader survey in a Nudist publication I use to subscribe to.)

There is no Bible verse forbidding nudism. But the actual fruits of it tend to be contrary to Biblical teaching. This is why I left the life style. I am now happy, honest and open with my Christian friends at my local church, and involved in a teaching ministry. Nudism offered me "freedom" (bound to secrets), but I have found truth to be a better freedom.

Please do not use my name if you decide to use any of this writing. I have moved on and put this in the past. I only write in hopes of helping others who are being seduced by the Christian nudist web sites.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby Maverick » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:11 pm

Elsewhere on the same site, on a page called "What's Okay, What's Not" (referring to sex acts of a married couple), there is a blurb about "Public Nudity."

There are those who call themselves "Christian nudists." While this seems obviously wrong to many, there are those who ask "why?" so we will try to address that question.

Some suggest they are just returning to the way Adam and Eve were before the fall. The problem with this theory is that we are still a fallen people - redeemed yes, but not yet perfected. We are still subject to the same temptations and lusts, and how can we justify doing something which could be used by another for sin? If we should avoid eating meat in the presence of those who lack such faith, how much more should we avoid being nude? Even if "I" can see others naked and not lust, how can "I" know that everyone else is also able to do that? I can't, so public nudity is risking being an offense or stumbling block to others.

Some nudists claim that Jewish fishermen worked naked. Their basis for this is the words “stripped down for work” found in the Bible. In reality, these words mean that the outer clothing was removed, while the inner clothing, which still fully covered the body, was left in place. (Besides, no sane man would fish naked – think about it!) This and other twisting of Scriptures are used to try and biblically support nudism, but these are just attempts to make the Bible say what they have already decided to do.

Nudists will also say "it's not about sex." But we see that both the Bible and biology say otherwise:


Scripture: When God give us a list, in Leviticus, of people we are not to have sex with (incest), He does not say "don't have sex." Instead, He tells us not to "uncover" or "discover" their nakedness. Given how explicit God is in other parts of the Bible, we cannot dismiss this as a euphemism designed to avoid talking plainly. God limited nakedness because He knew that nudity is inherently sexual, and fallen people often lack the self-control to avoid falling into lust, and following that lust into sex acts.


Science: has shown that certain parts of the body are inherently sexual. Not because of our culture, but because of the biology God gave us. Pheromones (we call them airborne hormones) can have a major effect on others: they are what cause women who live together to "cycle" together, and they cause a man to have a slight rise and fall in his sex drive that follows his wife's cycle. There are certain parts of the body that emit large amounts of these sexual pheromones: the underarms, the genitals, the aureoles of men and women, and the navel of women are the "biggies." When these parts of the body are covered with clothes, the clothes capture most of the pheromones; when we are naked, the quantity of pheromones reaching others rises significantly. Therefore, being nude means you are sending a lot stronger sexual signals to those around you.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby webmeister » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:49 pm

In the article you provided the author does use many generalities, some statistically backed up with numbers and some not. Without personal social nudity experience I cannot say for certain, however I am not naive and I do not doubt, there are some (mostly men again assuming) that are driven so strongly to participate in social nudity that they would give up their marriage or family commitments to fulfill their desires. I myself have felt the drive to experience this so strongly that I struggle with the thought of going against my brides expressed wishes and attending such a facility. At this point in time I will just keep it a prayerful desire. Thank God for me family is wayyy more important that experiencing social nudity. One great thing is that nakedness around the home (alone and together) is 100% ok :) Without that I would be frustrated.
Thank you Maverick, I appreciate you posting the article, it does help in my struggle to rationalize not pursuing the experience of being socially with others.

So, important point, be sure you are equally yoked when finding a bride. Find others of like mindedness, faithfulness to their spouse and to God to share the joy of being naked and unafraid.
Live - Love - Laugh
Have Fun!
User avatar
webmeister
Native Resident
 
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:03 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby Petros » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:47 pm

Fascinating. I do not intend to give a blow by blow, certainly not at present. So far as it goes, reasonable, well-reasoned. In terms of exegesis, no worse than any other.

The thing is: The overall feel reminds me of the plentiful Why I Left / Why I Became accounts written by Catholics turned Evangelical and Evangelicals turned Catholic and Christians turned atheist and atheists gone Christian. All of them serious and plausible and quite possibly right for the writer.

Beyond that - much of what is said of the problems of nudism [arguably with the exception of the sexual issues] applies, mutatis mutandis, to what I could write about Christians operating in the academy.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5388
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby jjsledge » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:20 pm

I don't know if this will work or not.

file:///C:/Users/Jerry/AppData/Local/Temp/Temp1_Picture%20of%20Galilean%20Fiship%20boat.zip/Galilean%20Fishing%20boat.pdf

Seems like it worked. I had to copy/paste. Hope it works for you.

The snide comment about fishing he was thinking hooks. They used nets. The picture (sent by a friend) was taken from a bible software program.

You don't have to be a christian to not lust in a social nude situation. I have been in groups of 300 to 500 people and have not seen anyone misbehaving. Nor have I seen any erections at any of the events I have attended.
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby Petros » Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:40 pm

The snide comment about fishing he was thinking hooks. They used nets.


There now - just shows you how presuppositions work. I ofcourse, assming nets, figured he meant that fish can be scaly and spiny in paces plus splinters from the boat. But of course you are right - he sees Peter and the big catch with his bamboo pole with the worm on the hook!
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5388
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby New_Adventurer » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:08 am

file:///C:/Users/Jerry/AppData/Local/Temp/Temp1_Picture%20of%20Galilean%20Fiship%20boat.zip/Galilean%20Fishing%20boat.pdf


This only works for you because it is referencing a file on your local C drive. For everyone else it needs to be located on a server we can all reach. Replace the file:///C:/Users/Jerry/AppData/Local/Temp with a domain name reference, such as http://www.cnvillage.org/, but do not use that one unless the picture is in fact already there.
User avatar
New_Adventurer
Native Resident
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Fremont, California

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby jjsledge » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:21 am

If someone knows how to post the picture I can fwd the email to them and let them post it. Just send me a PM. I suppose you know how to set up disposable email accounts if you don't like giving out your main email address. https://www.spamgourmet.com/index.pl

Jerry

I will be at the NTCN gathering so I won't be checking in as often.
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby Maverick » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:45 am

Petros wrote:Fascinating. I do not intend to give a blow by blow, certainly not at present. So far as it goes, reasonable, well-reasoned. In terms of exegesis, no worse than any other.

The thing is: The overall feel reminds me of the plentiful Why I Left / Why I Became accounts written by Catholics turned Evangelical and Evangelicals turned Catholic and Christians turned atheist and atheists gone Christian. All of them serious and plausible and quite possibly right for the writer.

Beyond that - much of what is said of the problems of nudism [arguably with the exception of the sexual issues] applies, mutatis mutandis, to what I could write about Christians operating in the academy.


You said it. That's exactly what I thought when I first read the article.

jjsledge wrote:The snide comment about fishing he was thinking hooks. They used nets.


Yes, and I wondered how the writers would overlook the fact that in that same passage (John 21) Jesus told his disciples to cast their net and not their rods to the other side of the boat!

One quote of the article that struck me is:
Nudism offered me "freedom" (bound to secrets), but I have found truth to be a better freedom.


There are many naturists who would reword this to say that nudism is freedom and truth. I'm not denigrating what the author wrote because I think it is very insightful, but one major problem that I think the Body of Christ needs to get over is the "nudity=sex" mentality, or even the mentality that "nudity is acceptable in art or maybe on TV but not in real life."

As a side note, the site in question does encourage married couples to be nude together in the privacy of their bedroom and also to sleep nude together, but it doesn't go beyond that.
In nuditate veritas.
User avatar
Maverick
Native Resident
 
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:14 am
Location: DFW, TX

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby jochanaan » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:59 pm

It also sounds as if the author did not have a thorough grounding in what the Bible actually says, and doesn't say about nudity, or in actual historical studies about what clothing was worn and when.

As for how the church treats nudists, that says a lot more about the modern church than about us. To take a law that is never stated in the Bible, and raise it to be a "shunning" issue, is not the way of Jesus; in fact, He warns against doing this.

The marriage issue: I have read about many couples, especially here in our Village, who make accommodations and stay together and loving. And although online we hear more about the "reluctant wife," in my "real life" I have known two couples in which the woman was interested and committed to naturism while the man was reluctant. They face even greater difficulties, especially in the face of much Christian teaching (going far beyond the Bible) about how men should rule their wives...
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby Petros » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:51 pm

I was reminded today that my first major quarrel with Wee Coryl was over the issue of brown versus black shoes [to this day I am very averse to the wearing of back shoon, though I have done it. To pick out the pro / anti naturism divide as more important in uniting / dividing the couple than other factors is a bit much. Yes, two united in food, politics, musical taste, etc. might fall apart over the nudity issue. But two pure textile Anglo-Catholic Democratic suburban opera singers can fall apart over what kind of cole slaw to eat.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5388
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby New_Adventurer » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:01 pm

I am proud to say that I have had 40 years of marriage between two wives and have slept naked the whole time. I think it is the only to truly appreciate the closeness of marriage. Still have not gotten my second wife to go naked in the hot tub, but I am working on it. Between all the various nude and clothing optional venues I have been to my estimate is that I have seen over 500 different nude people.
User avatar
New_Adventurer
Native Resident
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Fremont, California

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby jjsledge » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:09 am

Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
User avatar
jjsledge
Native Resident
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:53 pm
Location: Rockwall, Texas

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby jochanaan » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:10 pm

I suspect that "sweating the small stuff" is usually the sign of a deeper incompatibility.
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6342
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Thoughts from an Christian ex-nudist

Postby vycna » Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:59 pm

About the issue of avoiding eating meat in the presence of those who lack such faith, it is not in reality comparable to avoiding being nude. There is healthiness to being nude at least at times with others who are tolerant or like-minded in that, and any of us who practice this are not among those who lacking enough faith will stumble in sin because of it, in those times. And the Bible actually does not say anything against giving up or not eating meat. There is such reason in those passages to give up meat, but when most who speak from Bible passages are in discussion with any not having meat, and for reasons that are not because of the issues for that mentioned in those Bible passages, they will not give up meat in that case but rather easily refer to those others in such discussion ones with weaker faith. Where there was permission for meat, that was responsibility toward life given in the same passages, and requirements, such as not having any blood, mentioned with it, which is being ignored. There was not sufficient vegetation for food available right at that time, after many centuries of vegetarianism being the practice from God's permission, since the beginning. Having meat was since linked with sacrifices, which foreshadowed Christ's coming and sacrifice for us. But there is not suggestion that having meat was to last, and prophetic visions show that won't. What is said for meat never includes that it is healthier for us, having animal products, and processed foods, is not healthier for us, and it is not permission for having billions and billions of animals in brutal captivity with miserable conditions for being slaughtered every year, with our support as consumers of the products from them, there are much better more sustainable products that are alternatives, and there are the environmental issues impacted with using animals to be slaughtered for us. In fact, since Jesus came for us, no animal really has to die for us.
vycna
Native Resident
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:51 pm

Next

Return to Struggling with nudism / naturism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron