Biophilia and Gymnophilia

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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:20 am

I do not see most of the population giving up meat eating in this world short of serious contamination issues, radiation poisoning or something. And in my travels i look at all the ramge land and see it fit only for livestock. But that cant avoid the fact that meat is still not good for our consumption long term. As it tends to shorten life about as much as tobbaco does. Average 7 years i think. And a whole lot of the water used to irrigate hay land to feed cows could be switched to produce growing if meat became completely unsutable. Its just that what little info there is indicates a wonderful potential advantage in going all the way back to eden with the diet. Grow plants in the eden manner, rich on minerals, rich on flavor making it enjoyable to eat. And not heating it to kill the life. Plant life imparts life to us it seems. It takes our immune system up where disease cant happen, both acute(flu) and longer term (cancer) it can make extreme physical endurance for an athlete. And cause significant anti aging. Up to perhaps doubling expected lifespan if one is careful enough. (and God doesnt decide to let us go) So the possible advantage is significant enough i intend to go for it, make a business of it, the significant flavor advantage of mineral density would make for gormet quality, fast sales for top prices. (i heard one 10 lb flat of tomatoes go for $70 at a local market, greenhouse grown by the university, and that wasnt even nutrient dense by my knowlege, just ordinary fertility heirloom variety ) i could do the same and double the flavor with what i know of concentrating the natural minerals in soil and folier to feed the plants.
Its the attempt to eat raw without that mineral density that doesnt work so well. Either for health or flavor. Almost every time i eat fruit from the grocery i am disppointed in its quality. And yet thats all most people know, they have no idea what it can and should taste like. Once they get a taste of something better they get hooked. I know how business would boom and not be able to keep up in production once i get the flavor where it should be. Its a big empty area in agriculture waiting for entry. Just because farmers in general are not studying fertility management for themselves. Even many who have are only partually using it. It takes a lot of input to do it fully. Normally a farmer cant afford to do it fully on any sizable plot. Not even 1 acre. So i will start small with what i have. I can start with a few hundred sq ft, and expand as i can. I have obtained from study some idea what the Eden produce might have been like, flavor, mineral density, soil mineral balance, and soil fungal and bio life. The role of carbon. And would like to do it myself, demonstrate its effect on my own health. Actually been working with that in mind for many years. But its time i got going on it. My brother informs me weather at home is wonderful, 70's right now. Makes me wish with intensity i was home. But itll be a week yet, as im stuck in salt lake city waiting over the weekend to pick up a load going back east toward home. And they are saying a replacement driver isnt lined up yet, im disappointed. I feel like just cutting things off, saying i wont drive any more period. The truck transmission sounds bad sometimes. Houling like a vibrating shaft, but it seems only when its cold below freezing. At 20F is was noisy, at 30 it stopped and run quiet. I think if they force me out again i will insist on not running cross country. Stay local within 800 miles of home in case the tranny gets worse theres hope of making it home. And it did seem to be getting worse yesterday. But i will be very resistant to going at all. Im on the level mentally of a good university professor of agriculture, (i talked to a man in that position in a TN university and quickly discovered I knew a lot more than he did) i just do not belong on the road as a truck driver. My mind is going crazy with ideas to try on several levels. Im both an agriculuralist and inventor, Combine Tomas Edison with William Albreght and u got me. (Will was university of Mo ag professor and did extensive work on fertility, parrellel with Dr Reams, similar results coming from different directions, but in practice both end up about the same) I finally figured out why i get so fed up with driving. Its like putting those men into a factory job. I always knew i couldnt do factory work. It would make my brain have to go into nutral gear, go crazy with bordom, I didnt know truck driving was so much like it in essential ways. I vow to never let myself get trapped in it again once i break free. But maybe God let me do it just to teach me where I need to be.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:00 am

baresoul wrote:Living along a river would have water available, it would not be the same as anywhere in a desert. Still, that way wouldn't handle lots and lots of people even if they found the most sustainable way to live, people will need to be very spaced out from one another. There are also environmentalists and those caring for the environments that disagree that grazing animals that you use are benefiting grasslands and steppes. These are not the animals that your meat and animal products that you buy are coming from, anyway, but that minority of the grazing animals out there, along with where feed is grown for the huge majority of the animals in the factory farms that are constantly being bred in huge numbers, are very disruptive to the ecosystems that were there all along before, and many species have disappeared in places from that. Nothing in the natural order of this world is benefiting from the presence of human civilization or the animals being used for the humans present there. Ecosystems could really benefit from being left alone from human use. We don't have to use everything in the world, it is not there for that. And where vegetation would be grown for human use, if this was all we used, it would be enough for us, a lot more of humanity than the way we have it with many people left starving.


baresoul,
I am not recommending that you take cropland out of production and turn it into grazing land. That doesn't make much sense.

To your other point, It is possible to learn where the meat you eat comes from.
You can also graze sheep to produce wool. Older sheep can be slaughtered for dog and cat food, bone meal, leather from the shoes. You don't necessarily have to eat them yourself.
Cattle, goats and sheep can produce butter, milk and cheese as well.
I rarely slaughtered my hens. I raised them for eggs and for the way they ate bugs in my yard.
If you want your dog or cat to have shiny fur, give them an egg now and then mixed into their food.
I met a lady who swears that she has no fire ants wherever her chickens are allowed to roam. They eat the ants and her kids don't get bitten when they play in the yard now!

By the way, prairies without animals are not being left alone!
Hunters killed all the buffalo a century ago in most areas of the short-grass prairires.
The prairies declined without them. Grass needs animals.
I have also seen deserts that used to be grassland. They were not managed properly.
Undergrazing and overgrazing can create a desert.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:17 am

DaveT wrote:I do not see most of the population giving up meat eating in this world short of serious contamination issues, radiation poisoning or something. And in my travels i look at all the ramge land and see it fit only for livestock. But that cant avoid the fact that meat is still not good for our consumption long term. As it tends to shorten life about as much as tobbaco does. Average 7 years i think.

Dave, meat and dairy are not the ideal diet, but it is how people survive in areas too cold or too dry for fresh vegetables year-round.
You probably would want to feed your dogs fresh meat. Some of it could come from deer or squirrels you thin out to protect your crops, but you might want to wear wool or leather in the colder months.
Again, I am not suggesting taking crop land out of production in order to convert it to pasture or chopping down forests to raise livestock. That's lunacy.

The one issue vegans run into is the lack of vitamin B12. Men in particular can suffer gradual decline in mental ability if they are not getting adequate B12, which is usually only found in sufficient quantities in meat. You wouldn't have to live on a meat-based diet to get enough, a mostly plant-based diet would be fine.
Now you can eat nutritional yeast to get your B12, but that is a modern innovation, not sustainable in more primitive circumstances.

I like your plans to engage in truck farming.
I know of one organic farm that hauls their crops 90 miles to market because they get such a good price from rich city folks.

John Kohler is all over Youtube and recommends boosting mineral content and that includes trace elements.
It is not always as simple as buying a box of minerals and shaking it out on the ground. You have to create a living soil beneath your feet to process the nutrients into a form that plants can use.
Micorrizhal fungi and beneficial microbes need a substrate of compost to thrive, not a purely mineral soil.
Soil science is much more about soil biology and ecology these days, not about soil chemistry to the extent that it used to be.
I know that this isn't news to you, but I say this for the general benefit of other readers.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:33 am

Yes, you got a good idea how it works. The whole system of minerals, carbon, biologic activity and fungal life works together to make good soil.

God dressed Adam and Eve in leather. If it was good enough for them i aint got nothin against it. I wear leather myself when needed. But B-12. Thats different. In a healthy soil with sufficent cobalt the plants will develop B-12. I think that is how God intended it to work. But cobalt is ignored, nothing indicates that its needed by the plants. But its in soft rock phosphate, its in ocean water. I will use both. I love horses. Spent years with them learning their ways. I want a few. But will wait till i get enough pasture to keep them. I just know God didnt make animals with intent that we eat them. Thats an emergency allowance due to scarce food from plant source. And designated only clean creatures and only with blood washed out and fat removed. Health maintaining rules. The excuses men use to eat whatever they want dont hold up under close scrutany. So they eat to their own unhealth and misery.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:04 pm

DaveT wrote:... But B-12. Thats different. In a healthy soil with sufficent cobalt the plants will develop B-12. I think that is how God intended it to work. But cobalt is ignored, nothing indicates that its needed by the plants. But its in soft rock phosphate, its in ocean water. I will use both.


The soils in Kentucky's famous Bluegrass region and similar regions in Middle Tennessee derive from nice deposits of limestone and phosphate rock and consequently produce rich pastures that give horses and cattle strong bones, the stuff of champions. Good soil for human crops as well.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:29 am

That area has better mineral levels, and therefor produced more strong boned and winning horses. But we can add the minerals anywhere. Just takes a knowlege of what minerals and how much, and resource to buy them. I can wish i had a big farm and lots of money to dump into it. But i will work with what i have.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby MountainDog » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:54 pm

Ramblinman wrote:Biophilia hypothesis: Idea that humans possess an innate tendency to seek connections with nature and other forms of life.

I have read some people who report that animals in the forest seemed less frightened and were not as likely to run when they encountered someone who had no clothes on. People also don't realize how intelligent animals are. Temple Granden, who wrote a book called "Animals in Translation", detailed a study of a man who was researching I believe prairie dogs and specially they "language" as they communicated with each other. This researcher become so competent in prairie dog language that he figured out that the prairie dogs had individual names for coyotes, could communicate the presence of a human, and even that the human was carrying a gun! So, pay attention to how animals respond to you when hiking clothed and nude and see if there is a difference.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby MountainDog » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:00 pm

DaveT wrote:But B-12. Thats different. In a healthy soil with sufficent cobalt the plants will develop B-12.


Many people, when getting up in the morning, rinse and spit to get rid of the morning taste. B12 is produced by oral bacteria and it would benefit one to get used to first rinse and swallow and then go to anything else like mouthwash to freshen up.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby baresoul » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:27 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
baresoul wrote:Living along a river would have water available, it would not be the same as anywhere in a desert. Still, that way wouldn't handle lots and lots of people even if they found the most sustainable way to live, people will need to be very spaced out from one another. There are also environmentalists and those caring for the environments that disagree that grazing animals that you use are benefiting grasslands and steppes. These are not the animals that your meat and animal products that you buy are coming from, anyway, but that minority of the grazing animals out there, along with where feed is grown for the huge majority of the animals in the factory farms that are constantly being bred in huge numbers, are very disruptive to the ecosystems that were there all along before, and many species have disappeared in places from that. Nothing in the natural order of this world is benefiting from the presence of human civilization or the animals being used for the humans present there. Ecosystems could really benefit from being left alone from human use. We don't have to use everything in the world, it is not there for that. And where vegetation would be grown for human use, if this was all we used, it would be enough for us, a lot more of humanity than the way we have it with many people left starving.


I am not recommending that you take cropland out of production and turn it into grazing land. That doesn't make much sense.
To your other point, It is possible to learn where the meat you eat comes from.
You can also graze sheep to produce wool. Older sheep can be slaughtered for dog and cat food, bone meal, leather from the shoes. You don't necessarily have to eat them yourself.
Cattle, goats and sheep can produce butter, milk and cheese as well.
I rarely slaughtered my hens. I raised them for eggs and for the way they ate bugs in my yard.
If you want your dog or cat to have shiny fur, give them an egg now and then mixed into their food.
I met a lady who swears that she has no fire ants wherever her chickens are allowed to roam. They eat the ants and her kids don't get bitten when they play in the yard now!

By the way, prairies without animals are not being left alone!
Hunters killed all the buffalo a century ago in most areas of the short-grass prairires.
The prairies declined without them. Grass needs animals.
I have also seen deserts that used to be grassland. They were not managed properly.
Undergrazing and overgrazing can create a desert.


You also told Dave,
Dave, meat and dairy are not the ideal diet, but it is how people survive in areas too cold or too dry for fresh vegetables year-round.
Again, I am not suggesting taking crop land out of production in order to convert it to pasture or chopping down forests to raise livestock. That's lunacy.
The one issue vegans run into is the lack of vitamin B12.


Though there are people that go to the cold or dry extremes in this world, those are not places meant for the best way for us to live. I would endorse using the useful land where we can grow what we need, that is most stable and sustainable, and it will be what I would seek.

There are animals that should be in a functioning grassland ecosystem,, I wouldn't have it otherwise, using it for animals used as livestock is not what works for that. And animals around us can be functional in our environment, that doesn't mean they should be there to use for our food.

It is lunacy to take land good for crops, and use it for feed for animals used as livestock to feed people (that is elite people among us, while there are people starving because of it). I won't do that and don't promote others doing that, while still they should come to needed change. But still that, which I would agree is lunacy, is really happening. In fact, even the rain forests are rapidly being eliminated, rapidly, for land that gets used growing feed for animals used as livestock. It contributes to destruction of our world, and for what isn't even healthier for us, while taking what could be left to feed those who starve to death instead.

It is not just vegans that might become deficient in B12. There are those eating animal products who become deficient too. B12 is in fact not from plants or animals, but only produced from bacteria as what there are in the soil. It is needing cobalt to be there, indeed, but it is that the bacteria are there to produce it. If food we use is cleaned too well, without using animals that ate what was yet dirty and took in the bacteria with the B12, we do need food fortified with it or supplements. Yet simple rinsing and low level cooking will provide safe food and leave B12 available.

We can learn where our meat comes from. Those still having such products really really should still, and have yet to do so. It is necessary, with things God has said for that.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:25 pm

Money and convenience drives agriculture mostly. Not ideals or whats right for the world and our health.

Drive across eastern usa, observe the agriculture. Lots of good land for fruits and produce is used to graze beef and grow hay for cows. Thats about the easiest way to use the land. And the least efficent and productive. But its done because its easy. Even though a crop of fruit trees would make way more food, its also way more work. Lots of "farmers" just run cows on thier land and hold a part time or full time job elsewhere. When if they studied agriculture, they could put in crops that would make them a full income and be full time work on the farm. Its mental laziness that prevails.

Meawhile theres a significant shortage of real food. Look at the fruit juice sheves at any grocery, how much is real food sourced? The majority of the juices are from 0 to 30% real. Lots of them at 10-15%. Thats why the shortage is not apparent. Its being substituted with flavored water which is 0 nutrition.

Lots of white flour and refined sugar has replaced good whole food, more 0 nutrition. Our whole society is eating enough, but eating a lot of empty food, starving for nutrition.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby baresoul » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:29 pm

DaveT wrote:Money and convenience drives agriculture mostly. Not ideals or whats right for the world and our health.

Drive across eastern usa, observe the agriculture. Lots of good land for fruits and produce is used to graze beef and grow hay for cows. Thats about the easiest way to use the land. And the least efficent and productive. But its done because its easy. Even though a crop of fruit trees would make way more food, its also way more work. Lots of "farmers" just run cows on thier land and hold a part time or full time job elsewhere. When if they studied agriculture, they could put in crops that would make them a full income and be full time work on the farm. Its mental laziness that prevails.

Meawhile theres a significant shortage of real food. Look at the fruit juice sheves at any grocery, how much is real food sourced? The majority of the juices are from 0 to 30% real. Lots of them at 10-15%. Thats why the shortage is not apparent. Its being substituted with flavored water which is 0 nutrition.

Lots of white flour and refined sugar has replaced good whole food, more 0 nutrition. Our whole society is eating enough, but eating a lot of empty food, starving for nutrition.


That is interesting insight, that there is laziness to choice for using animal agriculture over growing edible produce from vegetation. It may be true, as it can be more work, though I look toward approaches that don't use as much work, I hadn't thought of that though. And there really is a serious issue to health, with epidemic food related problems to health people suffer from, with all the processed foods, which are so artificial. For our health we need to get away from that, along with getting away from the animal products many of us keep using.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Petros » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:59 am

Oh, for the good old days - when people slashed jungles and burned prairies to make criopland - hard to support much of a civilization just foraging for roots and leaves and berries growing naturally - and where animals were killed to stop them eating either the kids or the crops and eaten so as not to let anything go to waste.

There was none of this house and car and TV and computer and central heating perversion then. Ah, the good old days!
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:54 am

Petros wrote:Oh, for the good old days - when people slashed jungles and burned prairies to make criopland - hard to support much of a civilization just foraging for roots and leaves and berries growing naturally - and where animals were killed to stop them eating either the kids or the crops and eaten so as not to let anything go to waste.

There was none of this house and car and TV and computer and central heating perversion then. Ah, the good old days!

One of my ancestors never did build a house. He owned a huge tract of woods and farmed some of it. He slept in the rough, wandering up and down the creek bottom most of the year.
In extreme cold, he'd cobble together a shelter from the rain, cold and snow with a fire in front. That's about the roughest one can live in the wilds of Tennessee.
Most of us don't feel guilty for living in a sturdy house, but we could take a few cues from the Amish as far as simple living.
Homegrown organic food is not a step backwards: fresher, tastier, free of contaminants, more nutritious.
Some folks regard nudity as primitive, savage, when in fact, it is the height of wisdom to follow The Designer's Plan for healthy bare skin, barring frosty weather.
Foraging wild foods very nicely supplements what we can grow in a vegetable plot. Nature provides nutrients we'd never find any other way.
A car can be designed to run on solar-derived electricity, but many people think a horse or good mule will get you and your wagon where you need to go in plenty of time when travel on your own two feet isn't sufficient.
I am grateful for the advances of medicine, but a lot of what constitutes medicine is quackery and some future generation may very well laugh at it.
Animals still do eat crops. It may be the family goat run amuck or deer. But extinction of herbivores is not the goal. Better to do a better job protecting your garden and loved ones.
Civilization is grossly overrated.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby DaveT » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:04 pm

The houseless farmer is my style. Maybe not quite that limited, but just enough to have a little warm spot to snuggle into is enough to get by.

It doesnt take another generation to be disgusted at modern medicine, all it takes is some study of natural healing and hearing some real life facts about how the AMA squashes any real cures for certain money making diseases. The modern medical system is a system of disease management for profit. They dont want cures.

I would love horse powered transportation, untill i needed to haul something a long ways or get somewhere fast. But in a small community for local gettin around it would work quite well.

Vehicles running on fuel. Thats another fraudalent money system. My research has revealed that ever since about 1910, technology has existed to run everything on electric continuasly. No batteries to run down. But it wasnt done because there was too much money in oil. And that would all colapse if the alternative came to light. So its been supressed ever since. In spite of dozens of variations of non fueled and water fueled vehicular drive systems having been invented. If any inventor gets anywhere close to creating something viable to replace oil consumption they get wacked down hard. Death threats, carried out if they dont cooperate. Big oil rules the world. Dont try upsetting their system, youll not last long.
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Re: Biophilia and Gymnophilia

Postby baresoul » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:30 pm

Indeed, having dependence on petroleum products and the industries that deliver them and vehicles and equipment that use them as basis to dismiss simpler living is not so wise, for in this limited world it can't go on. Even with time bought through some newer innovation we can't now see, there will still be an end coming. It is sure while people don't live in the way that is sustainable for us living in this world, without using more than the world will always provide for, this will not be harmful to environments or animal life. God did not plan for more than that to be assured to us. If we keep taking more, when we should have responsible stewardship to this world to be in the image of God, he would let us suffer consequences with what troubles come from it, for God was never assuring us that we were to take that way from this world for what we saw was desirable for the way we could live. We are alienated from the best ways to live in groups without civilization to depend on. Civilization owes it to people, which it took from the knowledge and skills.We could still use advantages in medication from it for that, but there are healthier ways to live than how people do in civilization.
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