surprised I'm here.

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surprised I'm here.

Postby starmagic » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:54 am

So, since I'm a new person, I figured I should post here too. :)

Anyway, I myself am not a naturist, though I can see why some people enjoy it. I grew up in a very body-shaming environment and being taught that nudity in any form was "wrong" and "sinful". I would like to one day overcome that shaming (enough to at least feel comfortable in a swimsuit), but I'm not sure if nudism is really for me. I enjoy art in all forms, and one of my favorite ways of expressing myself is through fashion and clothing. All my friends know me as a cutting-edge fashionister, making it surprising to anybody that I'd be here - but I'm willing to agree to disagree with those who aren't into fashion. :) My primary reason for coming here is actually because in spite of my love of fashion, I do think the body itself is a beautiful creation of God too. I'm also into drawing (and writing, painting, sewing, cooking, baking, music, dancing.... any form of art) and have done a few nude pieces, but whenever I work on them, I still feel a voice tugging at me thinking that it's "a sin" and feel guilty for it, despite the fact that I no longer believe I should feel that way. I've been doing some research but have yet to really talk to anybody about it, so I've read a few posts on here to see what kind of conversations go on here. Again, not sure if I'd ever do it myself, but I do find it intriguing and I'm willing to be a friend to anybody who's willing to be a friend to me. :)

Have a blessed day!
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby naturist » Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:42 am

Hey starmagic, a good place to start is to get hold of the book "Meeting at the River" by Pastor David Hatton. It is a great book. You can find it here:

http://www.pastordavidrn.com/files/booksale.html

I suggest you get both books, "Meeting at the River" and the sequel "Who said you were naked?" (actually it isn't a continuation of the story, but he refers to his first book throughout his second book). They're listed here for only $18 plus $3 shipping. Great deal!
There's more books I could suggest but I think this is a good introduction to what will address your concerns of whether social nudity is sinful?

On another note, Would God Command Isaiah to sin? He was commanded by God to go naked for 3 years. Obviously, he would have been nude in many public settings during that time. :)
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby starmagic » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:43 am

Hi again! So I know I talked to you (naturist) about this post via PM but I just realized that I apparently never replied on the actual thread - so sorry! But I figured I might as well do so now as well as post an update, as well as my thoughts/questions here so anybody else who wants to read/respond to them can.

I greatly appreciate the link you sent me - and honestly I've been looking for more stuff to read. I'm quite the bookworm but have really been slacking off in the reading department this year so I'd love to hear of any more recommendations. ^^

Also, you have a solid point when it comes to Isaiah. I've been meaning to look into a bit more of that particular area and was curious if anybody would know more about Isaiah's life/what he would've gone through back then. God definitely wouldn't have commanded him to sin, so I find it interesting that He would've commanded a prophet to do something such as this - many would assume that it was sinful, but if God commands it, it must not be. In fact I even mentioned the fact that Isaiah was told to be nude in public by God to my mom at one point when I was trying to figure out if nude art was a sin, and she was surprised that such a thing ever happened in the Bible. She's read it all the way through a few times so I guess she just never really got the full scope of that passage and/or it just went over her head. But, I suppose it makes sense - after all, God did create the body and everything like it and say "it was good".
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby Petros » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:27 am

Please take a look at 1SA:19:24. Prophets prophesying in the nude was not a one off for Isaiah - though remaining so so lomng likely will have been unusual. I would say that Isaiah's sting would be seen not as a sin, but as a sign God was involved.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby Englishman » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:41 am

Compared to Ezekiel & Hosea, I think Isaiah got off quite lightly; see Ezekiel 4:1-17 as an example & check out the story of Hosea & Gomer as it is woven through the rest of the book of Hosea.

I have been taught, but not researched it myself, that it is likely Isaiah was related to to the Israelite Royal Family of the time. He certainly seems to have found access to various kings fairly easy. Petros is right to say nudity among the prophets was not unusual, certainly prior to the reign of King David; things get a bit hazy after that.

There are indications that people worked naked especially in situations which may have damaged their very expensive clothes; expensive as a propotion of available monies, that is. Older translations, KJV for example, refer to Peter as being naked for work in John 21:7. Some argue the requirement to clothe the naked is based on the innate badness of nudity. My personal opinion, as one who enjoys & values being naked, is that those injunctions are there to encourage generosity toward the poor who had no choice but to be naked as the cost of clothing was beyond their means. One last piece of cutural rambling; the baptism of John probably required candidates to be naked, so Christ Himself would have entered the water naked. Some Orthodox Jews still maintain this practice I believe.

As to your mum not noticing the Isaiah passage... we often skip bits of bible we find difficult. How often does hear sermons reference Ps 137:9, "Happy is the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock."? There are goos responses to that passage and the other difficult stuff of which how we regard the human body & whether or not non-sexual social nudity is, or is not, endoresed by the Bible. I don't know if that helps at all but do feel free to ask questions, there are some well informed folk here. :)
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby jjsledge » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:22 pm

The culture surrounding modesty has people seriously confused. People are leaving the faith over confusion that comes straight from modern day Pharisees who insist on people adhering to their man-made standards. This is the playlist for the 5 part series on Christian Modesty for CrackYourBible. Attraction Vs Lust vs Covet is imperative to understanding scripture on this topic!


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... AtLuUToTGA
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby Petros » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:17 am

Many people {I should hate to say most] do not want to understand scripture or much else. They mainly want an Authority to tell them what they should "think".
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby JimShedd112 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:10 pm

Though i'm certainly not qualified to say what is meant by anything within the Bible (I've never read it and likely never will, at least not in full) could it be the command to clothe the needy was so they could cover themselves against the cold at night, or at least in the chill of winter? It seems modern society, going back who knows how far, has warped much of what the Bible says on the subject of nudity? Today, to be seen nude is considered scandalous yet there is so much lustful desire for a glimpse of a naked or very skimpily covered body, especially when it is seen as fitting the much celebrated standards of fitness and beauty in today's society.

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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby starmagic » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:46 pm

Englishman wrote:Compared to Ezekiel & Hosea, I think Isaiah got off quite lightly; see Ezekiel 4:1-17 as an example & check out the story of Hosea & Gomer as it is woven through the rest of the book of Hosea.


I didn't go through Hosea yet but I read the passage in Ezekiel - WOW! That's all I can say. To be honest I'd have to say I'd agree. Glad I wasn't eating when I read that one... And yeah, I think she was raised in a similar environment that I was in, so she always thought/assumed that naturism would be "shameful" or "sinful" because "God wanted us to cover up". With me being an artist (who's inclined to think of nudity in an artistic sense) and me pointing that out though, we both seemed to come to the conclusion that since God did create the body - and God doesn't make anything "wrong" or "sinful" - then what we thought originally was not the case after all. Not that she's open to that kind of lifestyle (to be honest, I think she might be even more afraid of showing her body than I am, which really says something), but I definitely think she now agrees with me in the sense that it actually is possible for a naturist to be a Christian (and vice versa!).

Petros wrote:Please take a look at 1SA:19:24.


Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean - did you mean "ISA" as a shortened form of "Isaiah" or something else? Also, I think you have a point in your later post - I think a lot of people are more inclined to just follow what they see the masses doing instead of thinking things through and figuring them out for themselves.

Thanks for the link, jjsledge! I'll have to watch that sometime soon. And that's a very intriguing idea too, Jim - I admit, that does make sense.
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby Petros » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:50 am

Not Isaiah, 1 Samuel.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby naturist » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:47 am

starmagic,

Here's a wealth of information for you. This was previously shared over at Naturist-Christians.org with the author's permission. John Kundert is the
Editor of figleafforum.com He ran this site for many years and although it is no longer active, he maintains the site so people can still read the archives. You can go to the site and request a password for free to access all the old newsletters and articles. Scattered throughout the newsletters are 48 common objections to naturism and bible based answers to those questions.

John Kundert generously shared with me a PDF with all 48 of these questions & answers. I was going to post it, however it won't let me attach it here. If you or any other member wishes to get the PDF file, PM me your e-mail address and I will send it to you.

Here are the contents:

Why?
01: Christian nudism is a contradiction in terms — an oxymoron!................................................ 7
02: But what are your motivations?.............................................................................................. 11
03: Why do you feel you must go to such lengths to justify your lifestyle? ................................. 13
04: All kinds of odd people claim legitimacy for their cause in the name of Christianity.
I don't care what your "reasons" are, it's still weird. ............................................................... 15
05: Christian nudism sounds like a cult to me.............................................................................. 18
06: I think Christians are losing their standards. .......................................................................... 20
07: The moral climate of most nudist clubs is horrible. What an atmosphere for a Christian
to be in!................................................................................................................................... 24
08: Being without clothes removes one's modesty and dignity. ................................................... 27
09: How can you be a nudist when so many believe your behavior is immoral and wrong? ....... 30
My Christian Life
10: Don't tell me that God commanded you to do this. ................................................................ 33
11: When the most respected Bible authorities condemn your activities, does that not make
you stop and think?................................................................................................................. 35
12: How can you claim that nudism draws you closer to God and affects your relationship to
Him in a positive way? ........................................................................................................... 39
13: If someone is in doubt about something they are doing, then it's a sin to participate............. 41
14: Promoting nudism destroys your influence for good.............................................................. 43
15: Christian nudism is simply sinful. It's wrong to go where lust could so easily and
obviously occur....................................................................................................................... 46
16: You shouldn't get involved in anything that you need to keep secret..................................... 50
17: Your nudist priorities seem to take you away from your relationship with Christ because
you focus more on it than on Him. ......................................................................................... 53
18: Shame and modesty were given to us by God as a regulatory force....................................... 55
19: God has called all of us to be His witnesses, and it's very doubtful that anyone can be an
effective witness through nudism. .......................................................................................... 57
My Relationships With Others
20: Social nudism has harmful and confusing effects on your children. ...................................... 60
21: The potential for abuse of children seems to be higher within nudism. ................................. 62
22: Your nudist practice is jeopardizing the important work you are called to do in
your church. ............................................................................................................................ 64
23: As Christians we have no business participating in activities that are deemed illegal,
or that are in any way contrary to the law............................................................................... 67
24: You cannot make certain you aren't causing others to lust..................................................... 69
25: Only in the context of marriage is 'social' nudity acceptable.................................................. 71
26: Nudism can cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble. If something you do causes
weaker brothers and sisters to stumble, then you should not do it. ........................................ 73
27: What if someone asks about your views on nudism? Your influence can do great harm. ..... 76
Contents Page 3 of 136
28: My impression is that social nudism very often causes marital conflict. It becomes
a wedge that drives spouses apart........................................................................................... 79
The Bible / God's Word
29: As a result of the Garden of Eden, we should be ashamed and are in need of covering. ....... 81
30: God mandated clothing after the fall. He put clothes on Adam and Eve, thus requiring
clothes to be worn from then on. ............................................................................................ 84
31: How can you defend social nudism by referring to an alleged or — at best — irrelevant
practice of nude baptism in the early church? ........................................................................ 87
32: It's obvious that Jesus didn't practice any form of nudism. Aren't we to pattern ourselves
and our lives after Him? ......................................................................................................... 90
33: Why would you want to change moral conduct that has been a part of the Church
throughout history?................................................................................................................. 92
34: The story about David and Bathsheba shows that nudism is sinful, even for the
spiritually strongest person. .................................................................................................... 94
35: Paul told women to dress with decency and propriety. .......................................................... 96
36: God says you are to be ashamed of your nakedness. .............................................................. 99
37: God condemns public nakedness in the Bible. ..................................................................... 101
38: You are twisting the Word to justify your immoral lifestyle choices................................... 105
Miscellaneous
39: Social nudists are against the use of clothing. That's absurd!............................................... 107
40: The Bible designates clothes as a control for lust................................................................. 109
41: Anyone involved in nudism is potentially contributing to the purveyors of smut who
misuse it for their own immoral purposes. ........................................................................... 113
42: We as Christians should warn against the exploitation of nakedness and sex in the
media, and not promote it like you do. ................................................................................. 115
43: Nudism is primarily associated with self-gratification. It's only for those who are
satisfied with their own appearance...................................................................................... 118
44: The reason to keep away from naturism is that there's an inseparable correlation
between porn and nudity....................................................................................................... 121
45: Most nudist places are filled with so many men and so few women. Doesn't this say
something about motives? .................................................................................................... 125
46: Certain parts of the body are inappropriate and undesirable to view. .................................. 127
47: I'm troubled by the sweeping, utopian idealism expressed in your nudist philosophy.
Do you guys think Eden still exists?..................................................................................... 129
48: But why? Is nudism really worth it?..................................................................................... 132
Conclusion.................................................................................................................................. 135
Acknowledgments ...................................................................................................................... 136
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby Cvick » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:09 am

As with a surprisingly high number of issues, Biblical experts can, and no doubt will, reel off passages and extracts that will prove their particular point. In cases such as nudity it is going to come down to individual understanding and relationships. We must all ask if our nakedness is a positive or negative example for those we love and those we encounter, most people would not want to adversely affect the vulnerable or court danger or offence. Additionally for Christians this will also involve prayer and seeking God’s guidance, either way we will all have to come to a realisation that either it is right or wrong For us in all or in certain circumstances, for example right on the beach wrong in church building.
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby OzTech » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:08 pm

Ok... from Isa 20 we can determine that the shame of being naked in that era was due to their buttocks being uncovered (v4). We also learn that when a people are conquered they are led off naked (also v4). It would have also been a way of belittling or punishing a person... they stripped Jesus naked when they crucified Him. Nakedness is, therefore, an indication of abject poverty or slavery... which would also be a reason for being ashamed... I expect...or, perhaps, rejection by society. What does need some clarification is why they considered it shameful for their butt to be uncovered. (Personally I think it is for the same reason nudists take a towel with them when they go someplace where they will be sitting down... but I do not have anything much in the way of scriptural support for that theory... yet ).

I'm not sure that shame was associated with genitalia. The passage in 1Cor 12:22-24 seems to indicate that they maybe less presentable. I am inclined to think that it is saying that our genitalia is delicate and in need of protection. There would be valid reason to cover up down there if we are in an environment where we could suffer some damage.

From 1Sam 19:24 we surmise that it was normal God's prophets to prophesy when they were naked. Why would this be? Well... when Elisha witnessed the Chariots of Israel and it's horsemen he took hold of his clothes and ripped them in two... I rather think that being a prophet of God could have been rather hard on expensive clothing... if they did not take them off before delivering God's Word to the people, that is.

Oh... finally... as best I can determine... the Gen 3:7 account only mentions that Adam and Eve covered their lower parts... i.e. they made aprons... not robes. The societies who allow their ladies to be bare chested should find no issue with scripture on that matter. I rather think that women and men working in the fields during Biblical times probably only girded up their loins to protect themselves from any harm while working there.
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Re: surprised I'm here.

Postby JimShedd112 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:38 pm

I just have re-read through this strip and realized (since I found my own post) I’d commented before on clothing the poor. Could it be the prophets were commanded to deliver their sermons while nude as a sign of humility since the majority or, perhaps all, their audiences would be either nude or very shabbily dressed as opposed to the wealthy royalty and merchants?

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