Gospel Presentation

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Gospel Presentation

Postby ezduzit » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:38 pm

In order to avoid false professions so rampant in today s "easy prayer ism " movement , I`ve put together this presentation ..............
Ez

If you were to die today where would you spend eternity? No one likes to think about death, but death comes to everyone.
Gods’ word tells us in ........................
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Upon your death according to Gods’ Word you will spend eternity in one of two places.....
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (hell): but the righteous into life eternal. (heaven)

Every person in this world inherited a sinful nature......................
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

You must admit you are a sinner, not only to yourself, but to God!
There is nothing you can do to save yourself !
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Good works, church membership, baptism, or good deeds, will not earn your way to heaven because ........................
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, ;Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
You see you are helpless to save yourself !

But here is the good news of the Gospel!
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us
John 3:.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Just believing with your mind that you are sinner, that God loves you, and that Christ died for you, is not enough!
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
You must accept the free gift of salvation by repenting and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as your own Saviour.
Repentance is a change of mind and your heart; wrought by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God. It causes you to turn from your sins, dead religion, and works, to trust in Christ alone.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Will you believe , repent and call upon Christ today? Will you receive Him and His free gift of salvation?
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby MoNatureMan » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:23 pm

Good job.


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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby bn2bnude » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:48 pm

EZ,

This is well written and correlates well with what I've heard all my life.

I have some concerns about what was written however. Because I know this is what you believe to your core, I am going to ask permission to post some critiques.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby ezduzit » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:55 pm

bn2bnude wrote:EZ,

This is well written and correlates well with what I've heard all my life.

I have some concerns about what was written however. Because I know this is what you believe to your core, I am going to ask permission to post some critiques.


No problem , I`m interested in what you have to say
Ez
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby bn2bnude » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:05 pm

Thank you.

I think you have a good start and...

I understand the emphasis of "salvation" in the churches today, especially in certain sectors. On the other hand, the "Good News" or Gospel is quite a bit more than that. I also understand the emphasis on heaven as a result of salvation.

Here are some major themes I find missing.
  • Freedom from sin - We've discussed this extensively elsewhere here.
  • Freedom to not sin - About the same as above but I see it as a two phased item
  • Kingdom of God - I know there are belief systems that believe the Kingdom of God is a future event. Jesus, however, said many times that the Kingdom was here with us and, from what I understand from reading the scripture, we are still part of that kingdom.
  • Reconcillation - My biggest complaint of the sort of presentation is the emphasis on the current sin without looking at the benefits. I am a software developer who, when dealing with others who do not change, have found that if you emphasize the reasons they should change (in this case sin) it doesn't get listened to very often. When you start emphasizing the benefits of that change, however, you will see a lot more quickly.
  • Adoption into God's family - again, this is more of the benefits.
  • Becoming one with Christ - Probably the biggest benefits in my mind.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby Petros » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:54 am

For what it may be worth, I suspect that may depend who you are talking to. For some, as with sales or a lot of other presentations, benefits may indeed be an important factor - and talking to some I have dwelt on benefits.

But for others - well, I can only say witrh some certainty that benefits would not have helpedf in my case, and might even have tended to put me off.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby ezduzit » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:41 am

bn2bnude wrote:Thank you.

I think you have a good start and...

I understand the emphasis of "salvation" in the churches today, especially in certain sectors. On the other hand, the "Good News" or Gospel is quite a bit more than that. I also understand the emphasis on heaven as a result of salvation.

Here are some major themes I find missing.
  • Freedom from sin - We've discussed this extensively elsewhere here.
  • Freedom to not sin - About the same as above but I see it as a two phased item
  • Kingdom of God - I know there are belief systems that believe the Kingdom of God is a future event. Jesus, however, said many times that the Kingdom was here with us and, from what I understand from reading the scripture, we are still part of that kingdom.
  • Reconcillation - My biggest complaint of the sort of presentation is the emphasis on the current sin without looking at the benefits. I am a software developer who, when dealing with others who do not change, have found that if you emphasize the reasons they should change (in this case sin) it doesn't get listened to very often. When you start emphasizing the benefits of that change, however, you will see a lot more quickly.
  • Adoption into God's family - again, this is more of the benefits.
  • Becoming one with Christ - Probably the biggest benefits in my mind.


Good thoughts , but wouldn`t these fall under the heading / thought of discipleship ?
ie after salvation?

Ps.103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

Some benefits of our salvation found here ...

Rom.5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
ezduzit
 

Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:49 am

ezduzit wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:Thank you.

I think you have a good start and...

I understand the emphasis of "salvation" in the churches today, especially in certain sectors. On the other hand, the "Good News" or Gospel is quite a bit more than that. I also understand the emphasis on heaven as a result of salvation.

Here are some major themes I find missing.
  • Freedom from sin - We've discussed this extensively elsewhere here.
  • Freedom to not sin - About the same as above but I see it as a two phased item
  • Kingdom of God - I know there are belief systems that believe the Kingdom of God is a future event. Jesus, however, said many times that the Kingdom was here with us and, from what I understand from reading the scripture, we are still part of that kingdom.
  • Reconcillation - My biggest complaint of the sort of presentation is the emphasis on the current sin without looking at the benefits. I am a software developer who, when dealing with others who do not change, have found that if you emphasize the reasons they should change (in this case sin) it doesn't get listened to very often. When you start emphasizing the benefits of that change, however, you will see a lot more quickly.
  • Adoption into God's family - again, this is more of the benefits.
  • Becoming one with Christ - Probably the biggest benefits in my mind.


Good thoughts , but wouldn`t these fall under the heading / thought of discipleship ?
ie after salvation?

Ps.103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

Some benefits of our salvation found here ...

Rom.5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


I would argue that each and every one of the items I mentioned are part of the Gospel as they are part of the "Good News".

Are they part of discipleship as well? Probably. Maybe the difference between our outlooks is I have several friends who have come to faith in long periods rather than one grand moment of decision. The decision was after "long periods of discipleship" rather than the other way around.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby ezduzit » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:00 am

bn2bnude wrote:
ezduzit wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:Thank you.

I think you have a good start and...

I understand the emphasis of "salvation" in the churches today, especially in certain sectors. On the other hand, the "Good News" or Gospel is quite a bit more than that. I also understand the emphasis on heaven as a result of salvation.

Here are some major themes I find missing.
  • Freedom from sin - We've discussed this extensively elsewhere here.
  • Freedom to not sin - About the same as above but I see it as a two phased item
  • Kingdom of God - I know there are belief systems that believe the Kingdom of God is a future event. Jesus, however, said many times that the Kingdom was here with us and, from what I understand from reading the scripture, we are still part of that kingdom.
  • Reconcillation - My biggest complaint of the sort of presentation is the emphasis on the current sin without looking at the benefits. I am a software developer who, when dealing with others who do not change, have found that if you emphasize the reasons they should change (in this case sin) it doesn't get listened to very often. When you start emphasizing the benefits of that change, however, you will see a lot more quickly.
  • Adoption into God's family - again, this is more of the benefits.
  • Becoming one with Christ - Probably the biggest benefits in my mind.


Good thoughts , but wouldn`t these fall under the heading / thought of discipleship ?
ie after salvation?

Ps.103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

Some benefits of our salvation found here ...

Rom.5:1 ¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


I would argue that each and every one of the items I mentioned are part of the Gospel as they are part of the "Good News".

Are they part of discipleship as well? Probably. Maybe the difference between our outlooks is I have several friends who have come to faith in long periods rather than one grand moment of decision. The decision was after "long periods of discipleship" rather than the other way around.


So if I understand you correctly , your friends learned to act, think, behave like a Christian before they were Christians? That is interesting ............
It is my understanding that a lost person cannot understand scripture or its principles until they are saved ie born again.
Ez

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:25 pm

ezduzit wrote:So if I understand you correctly , your friends learned to act, think, behave like a Christian before they were Christians? That is interesting ............
It is my understanding that a lost person cannot understand scripture or its principles until they are saved ie born again.
Ez

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


This presumes that God cannot lead someone toward salvation before he receives salvation.

Many people are raised in the Church and it is simply a matter of yielding the will to the Savior. They know what they need to do.

Many others are taught that Jesus is a good person but not the only begotten Son of God, that salvation is a matter of "good works outweighing bad". Others assume that God "overlooks" sin, so you are okay as is. Some people believe that God and Satan are two sides to the same coin. You want to please both God and Satan to have a happy life.

When you get someone with all this trash in their brain, it can take years to overcome the bias and false doctrine that bars the way to the Truth.
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby ezduzit » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:06 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
ezduzit wrote:So if I understand you correctly , your friends learned to act, think, behave like a Christian before they were Christians? That is interesting ............
It is my understanding that a lost person cannot understand scripture or its principles until they are saved ie born again.
Ez

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


This presumes that God cannot lead someone toward salvation before he receives salvation.

Many people are raised in the Church and it is simply a matter of yielding the will to the Savior. They know what they need to do.

Many others are taught that Jesus is a good person but not the only begotten Son of God, that salvation is a matter of "good works outweighing bad". Others assume that God "overlooks" sin, so you are okay as is. Some people believe that God and Satan are two sides to the same coin. You want to please both God and Satan to have a happy life.

When you get someone with all this trash in their brain, it can take years to overcome the bias and false doctrine that bars the way to the Truth.


I believe this paragraph in my "plan" covers this........ Note !the 5th paragraph
"Good works, church membership, baptism, or good deeds, will not earn your way to heaven because ........................
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, ;Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
You see you are helpless to save yourself !"

Everyone born again has been lead to salvation ie John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ez
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:16 pm

ezduzit wrote:I believe this paragraph in my "plan" covers this........ Note !the 5th paragraph
"Good works, church membership, baptism, or good deeds, will not earn your way to heaven because ........................
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, ;Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
You see you are helpless to save yourself !"

Everyone born again has been lead to salvation ie John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ez


In my church we call it Prevenient Grace , but it means John 6:44 if you prefer to avoid a theological term.
God can and does gradually work on an unsaved heart and a mind filled with false dogma.
In my case, trusted friends told me the truth when they could see that I was far from it. But God had already saved them, God guided them to say what they did, when they did, and God worked within my heart (still unsaved) to prepare me to accept the truth. None of these things were my own doing, the day of my salvation was approaching, but not yet there. Then sometime later, God worked yet again and I take no credit for that either. Was there free will? Of course, eventually. In fact, without this time of "drawing" I was too blind and hard-hearted to make a choice.
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:01 pm

ezduzit wrote:So if I understand you correctly , your friends learned to act, think, behave like a Christian before they were Christians? That is interesting ............
It is my understanding that a lost person cannot understand scripture or its principles until they are saved ie born again.

I do not think I would say this.

Let me try a different analogy (and remember all analogies break down at some point). Your model is quite transactional. In other words, God makes an offer of salvation, I complete the transaction, God then gives me Salvation in all it's forms.

I believe there is enough Scriptural evidence to come to the conclusion that this is, in my opinion, an incomplete model.

Instead, what if it were a courtship. God sees the lost and asks for a "date" or a chance to woo them. Just like with courtship or dating, there is no commitment until later. What the person being "woo'ed" is doing, however, is getting to know their suitor better until, at some point, they either reject more advances or marry.

I think of the illustration used in Hosea and several of the other prophets or the poetry of Song of Solomon, for example.

You're model, almost boils down to selling the transaction, my model looks at this as a marriage. Oddly, the same analogy that is used in the Bible when Jesus talks about his bride.

ezduzit wrote:1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


By your definition, this verse sort of precludes anyone from understanding any of this.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby ezduzit » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:52 pm

bn2bnude wrote:
ezduzit wrote:So if I understand you correctly , your friends learned to act, think, behave like a Christian before they were Christians? That is interesting ............
It is my understanding that a lost person cannot understand scripture or its principles until they are saved ie born again.

I do not think I would say this.

Let me try a different analogy (and remember all analogies break down at some point). Your model is quite transactional. In other words, God makes an offer of salvation, I complete the transaction, God then gives me Salvation in all it's forms.

I believe there is enough Scriptural evidence to come to the conclusion that this is, in my opinion, an incomplete model.

Instead, what if it were a courtship. God sees the lost and asks for a "date" or a chance to woo them. Just like with courtship or dating, there is no commitment until later. What the person being "woo'ed" is doing, however, is getting to know their suitor better until, at some point, they either reject more advances or marry.

I think of the illustration used in Hosea and several of the other prophets or the poetry of Song of Solomon, for example.

You're model, almost boils down to selling the transaction, my model looks at this as a marriage. Oddly, the same analogy that is used in the Bible when Jesus talks about his bride.

ezduzit wrote:1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


By your definition, this verse sort of precludes anyone from understanding any of this.


Not selling anything since..................

Salvation is a free gift...take it or leave it............... if you prefer to "open" the gift and expose all its beauty , promises etc to those who you would like to see accept it so be it....
A bad example but a fireman does not rush into a burning building and launch into a dissertation on the benefits of leaving the building . Ever read "Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God" preached by Jonathan Edwards ?
Blunt , yes but the Bible says "today is the day of salvation"
2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
IMO folks should be dealt with as if they have just moments to live because that really is the case is it not?
Ez
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Re: Gospel Presentation

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:11 pm

ezduzit wrote:1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


By your definition, this verse sort of precludes anyone from understanding any of this.[/quote]

Not selling anything since..................

Salvation is a free gift...take it or leave it............... if you prefer to "open" the gift and expose all its beauty , promises etc to those who you would like to see accept it so be it....
A bad example but a fireman does not rush into a burning building and launch into a dissertation on the benefits of leaving the building . Ever read "Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God" preached by Jonathan Edwards ?
Blunt , yes but the Bible says "today is the day of salvation"
2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
IMO folks should be dealt with as if they have just moments to live because that really is the case is it not?
Ez


I suspect you and I are at an stopping point with this discussion since we seem to be talking past each other (in other words, we are not really making an effort to really understand what the other is saying.

I spent to many years hearing what you presented. After years of having my spiritual world rocked by reading Scripture and opening my mind to what the Holy Spirit has to say, this sort of presentation presents a cognitive dissonance. I don't know what is absolutely right as I suspect there is truth on both sides of the discussion. I only know that it doesn't fit into my spiritual view any more.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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