Partial-Preterism, Preterism and Futurism

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Word Become Flesh

Postby Tevita » Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:02 pm

My wife and I are working our way through the devotional books of Dr E Stanley Jones. The study we are going through this year is the book "The Word Become Flesh". In this book Dr Jones emphasizes that we as Christians need to look at Jesus and his life to base our beliefs. He does not focus on The Christ as he felt that this was looking at a principal and not at the person of Jesus. He felt that when Christians look at "The Christ" they can and do water down Jesus into Principals and not look at the son of God. He also goes on to say that the divisions in the Church comes from Doctrine and not from Jesus. The divisive elements in the body of Christ are doctrine and theologies but the unifying element is the person of Jesus.
We must look to the passage in Luke chapter 20 where Jesus comes out very sternly and says God is the God of the living and not the dead. This is very much an exortation for us as Christians to live every day in the present and focus on the expression of our Christian life by following the examples of Jesus by showing mercy and love to all serving the poor and oppressed, healing the sick and feeding the hungry.
Our debates must be on how best do we take Jesus to the people who need him.
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Postby jochanaan » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:40 pm

tevita, you're exactly right that we need to look to Jesus, not a nebulous "Christ principle." But I'm curious how you relate this to Partial Preterism etc...?
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Postby natman » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:43 pm

Tevita,

Apart form reasoning through scripture, I think that is the basis for why I have been focused on this particular eschatological bent. All others positions apart from full-preterism appear to shift the focus away from Jesus, and place it on watching current events, hoping to determine the modern-day presence of "the Antichrist".

Since I believe that most of the prophesies that were given in scripture have already come to pass, except the final return of Christ, the resurrection and judgement of the dead and the restoration of the universe, the only thing we should be focused on is spreading the Gospel because Jesus could return at any moment, like a bolt of lightning. After that, there is no hope for those that have not responded to the Gospel, especially for those that have never even heard the name "Jesus".

At the same time, we are to teach the next generation of Christians to love the Lord with all their heart, soul and mind (spirit) through the reading, study and meditatio of His Word.

I'm not sure how you separate the "person" of Jesus and "The Christ", however, as to me they are exactly one and the same.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby natman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:49 am

Jochanaan,

Have you formulated your response to Romans 11 yet?
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby bn2bnude » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:21 am

I have stayed out of this until now (I was involved in the debate on NC) but wanted to hear the views of others here.

It seems to me, one of the key points in this discussion may be...

Is Israel Still God's Chosen People?

My feeling as of late is no. My basis is the discussion of Covenants in Hebrews 9. The old covenant was with Abraham, then confirmed with Moses and the law. That covenant made Israwl God's chosen people (one that was often never kept). Wth advent (pun intended) of Christ, his death and resurrection, we now have voided the old covenant and ALL who follow Christ are God's chosen people.
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Postby Strandloper » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:11 am

Hi, Joel –
while at one level this is an acceptable argument, since only those who confess Jesus will ultimately be saved, at another it is the thin edge of the wedge that has in the past led to pogroms and other campaigns against Jewry, notably the nazi terror.
The Jewish people as a whole can no longer be seen as God’s chosen people, especially when one looks at the vast numbers among them who live a secular life.
Yet despite the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah by Judaism, this tradition retains a great many practices and distinctive traditions which are invaluable in throwing light on the culture in which Jesus grew up, and which He set out to complete.
Without the presence of synagogues and Hebrew scholars in our midst, we would be immensely poorer as Christians.
Shalom,
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Postby natman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:33 am

bn2bnude wrote:Is Israel Still God's Chosen People?

My feeling as of late is no. My basis is the discussion of Covenants in Hebrews 9. The old covenant was with Abraham, then confirmed with Moses and the law. That covenant made Israwl God's chosen people (one that was often never kept). Wth advent (pun intended) of Christ, his death and resurrection, we now have voided the old covenant and ALL who follow Christ are God's chosen people.


Bn2bnude,

While I agree with you in respect to Isreal, the nation, based on Galations 3 (see above), I believe that the Abrahamic covenant is still in affect, however, I also believe it was never intended to be for Israel the nation, but for Israel, God's chosen people, which is that small remnants that has always been present, that has had true, everlasting faith in God alone, looking forward to His promised Messiah in the OT and back to His promised Messiah, Jesus, in the NT.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby natman » Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:47 am

Strandloper wrote:it is the thin edge of the wedge that has in the past led to pogroms and other campaigns against Jewry, notably the nazi terror.


Yes. Unfortunately there are factions that have tried to use Jesus judgement against Jerusalem as justification to treat Jews cruelly. However, Jesus judgement in 70AD was not against all Jews. It was only against the first century Jewish leaders and what was once the "Holy City", who had corrupted God's Law and Word with so much human tradition that it was unrecognizable to the point that they could not or would not recognized God's promised Messiah when He stood right in front of their faces.

That judgement was complete, rendering the remaining Jews in the same theological position as any gentile. Consequently, we have no cause to treat them differently than any other race today, remembering that EVERYONE needs a Savior, Christ Jesus.

Without the presence of synagogues and Hebrew scholars in our midst, we would be immensely poorer as Christians.


I have had the opportunity to talk about religious practices with several "faithful" Jews and Muslims in my lifetime. Having them here and being able to observe them has pointed out, at least to me, how empty their practices are without Jesus to cling to. As far as I have seen, they go through all of the motions, but they are motions without substance, without real promise, without real hope. So, I guess I agree with you there.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby jochanaan » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:18 pm

natman wrote:Jochanaan,

Have you formulated your response to Romans 11 yet?

No. I'm still trying to process what I'm reading here, and to write a nudist Cinderella. :) Soon...
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Postby bn2bnude » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:33 am

I was working through some of the "Saturdays with Mark and Tony" with Mark Lowry and Tony Campolo.

Here is a link to Campolo's take on Rev 17-19.

I have also embedded it below...
<embed id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-5976317928026227362&hl=en" flashvars=""> </embed>
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Postby natman » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:44 pm

Tony's premise is that the "Whore of Babylon" is really the influence of the world on God's people. It would be a good premise if one only takes Revelation 17 through 19 by itself and negelects the rest of Scripture all together. However, Jesus is speaking to John in apocalyptic language that would have been very familiar to a first century Jew and making many, many references to the major prophets which repeatedly refer to Jerusalem, Israel and it's "religious" leaders as a "whore".


Number 14:33 (God speaking to the nation of Israel in the desert)
"And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness."


2 Chron 21:12-15
"And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and hast made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to go a whoring, like to the whoredoms of the house of Ahab, and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself:

Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods:

And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day."


Isa 56:10 thru Isa 57:3
"Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep.

They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain.

"Come," each one cries, "let me get wine! Let us drink our fill of beer! And tomorrow will be like today, or even far better."

The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.

Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death.

"But you—come here, you sons of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes (whores KJV)!"


Jer 3:1-2 & 9 (speaking to apostate Israel)
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.

Therefore the showers have been withheld, and no spring rains have fallen. Yet you have the brazen look of a prostitute (as whore's forehead KJV); you refuse to blush with shame.
...
Because Israel's immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. (And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. KJV)"

Jer 13:27
"I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?"


Eze 16:17-38 (Ezekiel alegorizes Jerusalem to a whore)
"Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them,

And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set mine oil and mine incense before them.

My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD.

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, that thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the LORD GOD;)

That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street.

Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.

Behold, therefore I have stretched out my hand over thee, and have diminished thine ordinary food, and delivered thee unto the will of them that hate thee, the daughters of the Philistines, which are ashamed of thy lewd way.

Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.

How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;

In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;

But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.

Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.

And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy."



Ezekiel goes on and on describing Jerusalem's unfaithfulness to the Lord in terms of being a whore.

Then the life of Hosea is also given as an alegory between the relationship of God, played out by Hosea, and Israel, played out by the whorish Gomer.

Throughout the Old Testament, the word "whore" either simply refers to an actual "whore" or to apostate Israel, not to the rest of the world. It is the image of Israel prostituting herself by setting aside her first love, God, for the false gods of Egypt, Babylon and Assyria.

I think the constant reference to the whorishness of Israel and in particular Jerusalem in the Old Testament is absolutely what is painted in Revelation, not some reference to the affects of the outside world on God's people.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby Strandloper » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:40 pm

Hi, Nathan –
sorry I missed your replies to my earlier post. You wrote:
I have had the opportunity to talk about religious practices with several “faithful” Jews and Muslims in my lifetime. Having them here and being able to observe them has pointed out, at least to me, how empty their practices are without Jesus to cling to. As far as I have seen, they go through all of the motions, but they are motions without substance, without real promise, without real hope. So, I guess I agree with you there.

Indeed, without the completion of Judaism provided by Christ’s suffering, death, resurrection and ascension, it is an empty religion.
It is also false in that it omits parts of the Scripture, most notably the crucial chapter in Isaiah which foretells the Passion.
Yet when a Jew accepts Jesus as a Messiah, he is not only complete as a Jew, he also has a far clearer grasp of what the Lord was about than the average Gentile.

Islam is in a different class altogether, since it is based on the teachings of one man who claimed Divine revelation, yet who based his prejudices against Christians and Jews on the heretical beliefs of the Christians and Jews he had met.
Judaism is founded on the Word of God. Islam is founded on a falsehood.
Shalom,
Strandloper
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Postby natman » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:53 am

Jochanaan,

It appears that you are back. Are you ready to continue our discussion?
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby jochanaan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:24 pm

Not yet, Natman. Perhaps soon...
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Postby bn2bnude » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:27 pm

This week, the Daily Audio Bible read through Daniel 11. I was taught, years ago, that this chapter refers to acient but also current events, leading up to rapture and tribulation.

This time, as I am reading through, I caught a phrase in verse 14 (Holman Christian Standard) about building a ramp to lay seige to a city. It sounded like the conquest of Masada by Roman.

This warranted further investigation so....

Many of the sites I pulled up were still expounding on prophetic (as in our future) wars, etc. One site, however, had a very historical and detailed verse by verse up to the time of Christ.

You can find it here...

This has been something in the back of my mind since reading "The Apocalypse Code" and has helped resolve some questions.
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