Partial-Preterism, Preterism and Futurism

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Postby natman » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:42 am

It was a good read. I especially enjoyed his presentation of Daniel 9, presenting all of the variously held viewpoints. That is how I was hoping this thread would progress.

If I understand his conclusion, I also thing I agree with him. The only point I would probably differ on is assuming Titus to be the "prince" referred to verse 26 of Daniel 9. As I read the chapter, keeping in mind how the Lord used other nations to judge Israel, unbenownst to them, I see the "prince" to be none other than Jesus Himself, as He "comes in clouds of judgement" against Jerusalem, using the Roman armies to do the destroying.
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Postby bn2bnude » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:28 am

natman wrote:It was a good read. I especially enjoyed his presentation of Daniel 9, presenting all of the variously held viewpoints.


A quick note... That discussion is here...

natman wrote:That is how I was hoping this thread would progress.


Glad I could help. To me, this has become unimportant enough to not make it a major issue or litmus test of anyones spirituality but has become important enough to affect my life and the way I live.
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Postby natman » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:41 pm

bn2bnude wrote:To me, this has become unimportant enough to not make it a major issue or litmus test of anyones spirituality but has become important enough to affect my life and the way I live.


I think that is part of my concern. If we hold to a futuristic eschatology, then we are typically less concerned with the emminant return of Christ, rather watching for the "signs" of the endtimes, believing that Jesus will not return until all of these things occur. This has the tendency to encourage us to put off making crucial decisions to either accept Christ as Savior or to witness to others about the Gospel. It displaces the urgency of great commission.
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Preterism, Futurism and the Kingdom of God

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:05 am

It seems to me that each of the "end-times' viow points may have a different opinion about the "WHEN" of the Kingdom of God.

Am I mis-interpreting this or is this true (please move to another strip if it doesn't fit into this conversation).

If I remember right, the futurist believes that the "Kingdom of God" does not occur until the "1000 year reign" but Mark 1:15 and many other scriptures state the Kingdom of God is near or even now.
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Postby natman » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:56 am

Partial preterists generally hold that the Kingdom of God actually began at the advent of Christ based, as you have indicated, on all the verses in which Jesus states that the Kingdom of God is at hand, near, with us or within us. At present He rules from His throne in Heaven. However, the Kingdom will not be fully realized until Jesus descends at the end of time and brings His throne to rule here forever.

Futurists generally deny that we are already in the Kingdom because Satan still is affecting people and tempting them to sin. But the Bible says that Satan will be "bound" during the "thousand" years (Rev 20:1-2). It is the image of a roaring lion on a leash, limited by the hand of God. In essence, Jesus life, death and resurrection made the works of Satan ineffectual againt those that believe in Jesus as Lord.
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Postby bn2bnude » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:05 pm

natman wrote:Partial preterists generally hold that the Kingdom of God actually began at the advent of Christ based, as you have indicated, on all the verses in which Jesus states that the Kingdom of God is at hand, near, with us or within us. At present He rules from His throne in Heaven. However, the Kingdom will not be fully realized until Jesus descends at the end of time and brings His throne to rule here forever.

Futurists generally deny that we are already in the Kingdom because Satan still is affecting people and tempting them to sin. But the Bible says that Satan will be "bound" during the "thousand" years (Rev 20:1-2). It is the image of a roaring lion on a leash, limited by the hand of God. In essence, Jesus life, death and resurrection made the works of Satan ineffectual againt those that believe in Jesus as Lord.


This sums up my understanding of the issue as well. Here is a link to all references to "Kingdom of God"... at least in the New Living Translation.
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Postby bn2bnude » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:10 am

natman wrote:Rev 20:4-6
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."


I have been suprised for a long time how many people are hung up on tattos, barcodes, federal identification, rfids, etc. Pointing to each of these things as "The mark of the beast".

Earlier this year I went to a how to study the Bible intensive weekend. One of the passages we looked at, concerning Gods word was Deut. 6: 4-9 which reads:

4 “Listen, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. 5 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength. 6 And you must commit yourselves wholeheartedly to these commands that I am giving you today. 7 Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are on the road, when you are going to bed and when you are getting up. 8 Tie them to your hands and wear them on your forehead as reminders. 9 Write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.


Notice verse 8, Tie them to your hands and wear them on your forehead as reminders. While the jews did this with their phylactories, I don't believe that is the intent of the verse. It talks about putting God's word into practice in what you do and memorizing scripture, putting it into your head -- what you think.

This verse, however, also reminded me of the Rev 20:4-6 passage above. Notice the placement of the mark in that passage... forehead and hands. I believe that John was writing to trigger images of the Old Testament in his readers heads. If this is the case, the "Mark of the Beast" is not a literal mark but, the things those with the mark do and think.

My challenge here is, could all this wondering about the physical marks be satans way of distracting us from the real issue?
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Postby natman » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:20 am

bn2bnude wrote:My challenge here is, all this wondering about the physical marks could be satans way of trying to distract us from the real issue?


I agree completely. That is really Satan's promary tool against Christians. Since he cannot affect our salvation, the only thing he can do is try to make us ineffective.

Almost ALL of the book of Revelation is a reference to the OT, and to the OT prophets. It is painted with plenty of OT apocalyptic imagery.
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Postby jochanaan » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:52 am

natman wrote:Almost ALL of the book of Revelation is a reference to the OT, and to the OT prophets. It is painted with plenty of OT apocalyptic imagery.

Which makes me wonder if both OT and NT prophetic imagery came from a common Source. 8) Maybe they were both visions of an ultimate Reality, a Reality too complex and different from what we know to be reduced to the languages we speak. (I use the word "visions," but that's obviously inadequate, since all the senses seem to be involved.)

Do you suppose the real reason John the Elder wrote as he did is simply because God showed him things and commanded him to write what he saw?
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