A Comparitive Religions Question

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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:54 am

nuudman wrote:Purgatory: i have felt and heard that it came from questions concerning what was to happen to that side of Paradise after Christ's Resurrection.
Perhaps you could clarify this statement, I don't exactly follow what you are saying here.

nuudman wrote:It also allowed the church a nifty lil way to fund raise to offer "to pray ole Joe out of Purgatory..."
Yeah, I never really figured out what the mind set of people was back then that this could be put over on them. If you needed to go to purgatory for x years to get put straight, then how could you be bailed out. If an all powerful loving god could do the job more efficiently, why would he not? Of course if the people could not or were not allowed to read the scriptures, I suppose anything could be put over on them.

nuudman wrote:Rachel screws up and unrighteously hands Hagar over to Abram
I think you have misattributed this. It was Sarai who was Abram's wife and Hagar was her handmaid (Gen 16:1-2) (muslims claim that Hagar was an Egyptian princess) Then when Sarahi was to get pregnant, God changed her name to Sarah (Gen 17:15) and Abram's name to Abraham (Gen 17:5)

nuudman wrote:Ishmael was born first to the handmaid. Then Rachel finally gets pregnant with Isaac. Isaac gets the birthright because of being from the wife. And this split is the basis of the longest running family fueds in history
Yep! that is about it. But the Muslims tell the story a bit differently. because they say that Hagar was an Egyptian princess and a wife to Abraham rather than a secondary wife, who was subordinate to Abraham's first wife Sarah Then they ignore the number of times that the scripture says it was Isaac who was to be offered (5 times in Gen 22:1-19 ) and instead focus on the word "firstborn". It is interesting to note that the account of the (almost) sacrifice of Isaac, God refers to Isaac as Abrahams "only son from me" (Gen 22:12).

Even though the plural of mouse is mice, the plural of spouse is not spice, except maybe in the sense of a spice which makes things to hot to digest ! :wink:

Quoted for convenience:
Gen 17:
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Gen 17:
15 ¶And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

Gen 16:
1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

Gen 22:
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby nuudman » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:03 pm

Apologies!!!! It is Sarai!!! Was in a hurry and didnt realize my mistake till i read your post.
Purgatory: There is a book, "Dispensational TZruths" by Larkin published way back in the 1900s that forms the core of many books written since then.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/larkin/dt
The OT Saints were waiting in Area One of Hades-Paradise.

The Three Areas of Hades Luke 20:16-20: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
1) Lazarus, is in the good side of Hades (Abraham's Bosom or Paradise.)
2) There is a gulf between the two others.
3) Hades is the bad place.

Please forgive the highly condensed form this is gonna take here on this post. In it, he illustrates that when Jesus took the thief with Him into Paradise, that Paradise is actually a "holding area."
Luke 23:41-43 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in PARADISE.

Note this is not heaven where Jesus went when he died, but Hades.

The Catholic Church had a few questions asked over the years, what happened to this place when Jesus was ressurected?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Matthew 27:51-54
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 AND THE TOMBS BROKE OPEN. THE BODIES OF MANY HOLY PEOPLE WHO HAD DIED WERE RAISED TO LIFE. [sup]53 THEY CAME OUT OF THE TOMBS AFTER JESUS' RESSURECTION AND WENT INTO THE HOLY CITY AND APPEARED TO MANY PEOPLE.
54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

This leaves Paradise empty. The Catholic Church put it back to work as "Purgatory."
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby natman » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:30 pm

Hebrews 9:27 says:

Heb 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

There is no mention of an intermediary activity or location.

Also, I do not believe that Jesus was refering to "Hades" when He spoke to the thief on the cross of "Paradise". Rather, like Himself, his spirit went to be with the Lord while his body went to Hades (Sheol), which is the ground, the grave, the "abode of the dead".

He, as wel as all those who have died have already been judged. The spirits of all of those who have been found in Christ are in the presence of the Lord. At the Resurrection, their bodies will rise and be rejoined with their spirit to live out eternity on a restored Earth in the presence of Christ and His grace.

Those who were not found in the Lord shall also be resurrected and rejoined by their spirit but will be cast into the eternal fire. (Rev 20:11-15)
SON-cerely,
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby nuudman » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:35 pm

So you are saying that the OT Saints were in Heaven upon their Death?


What difference do you attribute to Paradise, Heaven, Abraham's Bosom, Etc?
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby natman » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:56 pm

nuudman wrote:So you are saying that the OT Saints were in Heaven upon their Death?


Their spirits are in Heaven. Their bodies are still in the ground with the exception of Enoch and Elijiah, awaithing the Resurrection and the Final Judgement.

nuudman wrote:What difference do you attribute to Paradise, Heaven, Abraham's Bosom, Etc?


None. They are different terms for the same place.

However, you must also realize that Heaven is not intended to be our eternal home. Based on Revelation 21, we will live forever here on a restored Earth in the very presence of Christ our Lord.
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby nuudman » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:39 am

In Larkin's Book, he takes a very very detailed scriptural study on the differences between Hades-Sheol and Heaven. He points and many believe that the OT Saints could not actually go to heaven until Christ's Sacrifice. There was no blood atonement WORTHY of God until that moment.


Ephesians 4

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Before Jesus ascended to heaven: he descended into Hades as all the dead then, good and bad.

"Leading captivity captive" is a reference to Jesus leading those OT Saints in Abraham's bosom, in Hades, out of the depths of the Earth. He descended INTO Hades, Preached for three days. Was resurrected, as were the OT Saints as stated in Matthew 27:51-54. Where are the already resurrected OT Saints?



i do not pretend to understand all of the bible. i am just a moderate bible scholar at best. But i have learned to ask tough detailed questions about everything in the bible. It was put there for us to understand.
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby natman » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:52 am

nuudman wrote:In Larkin's Book, he takes a very very detailed scriptural study on the differences between Hades-Sheol and Heaven. He points and many believe that the OT Saints could not actually go to heaven until Christ's Sacrifice. There was no blood atonement WORTHY of God until that moment.


At first blush, that sounds reasonable. However, there are at least two situations where OT men of God are said to have gone directly into the presence of God, Enoch and Elijah.

According to Hebrews 11, those in the OT were saved by their faith in the then future promise of Christ's death on the cross.

nuudman wrote:Ephesians 4
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


This verse is not saying that Jesus descended into "Hell", but that He descended to Earth itself.

nuudman wrote:Before Jesus ascended to heaven: he descended into Hades as all the dead then, good and bad.

"Leading captivity captive" is a reference to Jesus leading those OT Saints in Abraham's bosom, in Hades, out of the depths of the Earth. He descended INTO Hades, Preached for three days. Was resurrected, as were the OT Saints as stated in Matthew 27:51-54.


The "descended into Hades (the grave) is correct. However, the "preached for three days" was added in later creeds but has no Biblical basis. Just before Jesus died on the cross, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46). For three days, Jesus' spirit was in the presence of the Father in Heaven while His body was in the grave.

nuudman wrote:Where are the already resurrected OT Saints?


That is a very good question for which I do not have a Scriptural answer. I can only assume that they were assumed into Heaven like Enoch and Elijah. Either that, or they are still walking around with us today.
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby nuudman » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:57 pm

At first blush, that sounds reasonable. However, there are at least two situations where OT men of God are said to have gone directly into the presence of God, Enoch and Elijah.


They are assigned specific roles:

Enoch may be a precursor or an example of a "Rapture" to come.
Elijah may be the Witness in Revelation that has Power Over Fire.
Moses may be the witness in Revellation with Power Over Water. (Curious how the book of Judas describes Satan's interest in the body of Moses after his death.)

According to Hebrews 11, those in the OT were saved by their faith in the then future promise of Christ's death on the cross.


True, but the blood sacrifice had still not paid the for sin. Animal sacrifice was only a postponement until the real sacrifice, God's Own Lamb. That is why they were still in Paradise, not heaven.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This verse is not saying that Jesus descended into "Hell", but that He descended to Earth itself.


The "descended into Hades (the grave) is correct. However, the "preached for three days" was added in later creeds but has no Biblical basis. Just before Jesus died on the cross, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46). For three days, Jesus' spirit was in the presence of the Father in Heaven while His body was in the grave.


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/artic ... 69770.html

PARADISE


While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades.
We know that Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, "in the heart of the earth," for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took "captivity captive" (see Eph. 4:8-10).
That Paradise was moved to heaven is confirmed to us by the Apostle Paul who speaks of a man who was "caught up into Paradise" where he "heard unspeakable words" (II Cor. 12:3,4). With Jesus Christ's work complete, the believers who had been confined to Sheol/Hades were now taken to Heaven to wait in God's presence until the time of their resurrection to enter His Kingdom on Earth. Since that time, at death all believers go to Paradise in Heaven to await the time of their resurrection. This is true whether they belong to the Kingdom Church of the future or the Body of Christ Church of the present Dispensation of Grace."
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby nuudman » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:06 pm

I do not get the bbcodes in this forum. Why is that?
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby Dave » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:35 am

nuudman wrote:I do not get the bbcodes in this forum. Why is that?


You had the "Disable BBCode" option checked in the options section when you posted. I removed the check and it looks fine now.

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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby jochanaan » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:05 pm

It seems to fall to me to remember to remind us all that time in Heaven is nothing like time on Earth--so that the question of "where are the resurrected spirits, and when do they get there?" has no meaning that we can understand--until we get into Heaven ourselves and understand how Time and Eternity interconnect.:)
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby nuudman » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:18 pm

Dave wrote:
nuudman wrote:I do not get the bbcodes in this forum. Why is that?


You had the "Disable BBCode" option checked in the options section when you posted. I removed the check and it looks fine now.

Thank you Sir. I tried and tried to figure it out and i guess failed badly. Thanks again, it has been murder replying in this forum. oops, here we go again. why is it only in this forum i dont get them?
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby natman » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:38 am

nuudman wrote:oops, here we go again. why is it only in this forum i dont get them?



I opened your post in edit mode and found that the "Disable BBcodes" was checked. I unchecked it and reposted it and everything appears to be alright again.



I looked at several of the posts by others and for some reason, it is only your posts and only in this forum. I wonder if the program remembers the settings of your initial post in a thread and then reapplies them.



Perhaps it is a "feature" that can be set or unset somewhere in the system.



Try posting something else using some bbcode function such as quote. Take note as to whether the "Disable BBcodes" is checked or not.
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:13 am

natman wrote:I looked at several of the posts by others and for some reason, it is only your posts and only in this forum. I wonder if the program remembers the settings of your initial post in a thread and then reapplies them.

Perhaps it is a "feature" that can be set or unset somewhere in the system.

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: A Comparitive Religions Question

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:31 am

I like what was said in the paper "The Jesus Manifesto" by Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola, prior to their book of the same name.
Jesus Christ cannot be separated from his teachings. Aristotle says to his disciples "Follow my teachings." Socrates says to his disciples, "Follow my teachings." Budda says to his disciples, "Follow my meditations." Confucius says to his disciples, "Follow my sayings." Muhammad says to his disciples, "Follow my noble pillars." Jesus says to his disciples, "Follow me." In all other religions, a follower can follow the teachings of its founder without having a relationship with the founder. Not so with Jesus Christ. The teachings of Jesus cannot be separated from Jesus himself. Jesus Christ is still alive and he embodies his teachings. It is a profound mistake, therefore to treat Christ as simply the founder of a set of moral, ethical or social teaching. The Lord Jesus and his teaching are one. The Medium and the Message are One. Christ is the incarnation of the Kingdom of God and the Sermon on the Mount.

Although I can no longer find the paper on the web. You can hear it read here. The book expands on the paper and is a great resource.
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If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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