Contrasting views of the Gospel

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Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby bn2bnude » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:17 am

I saw a presentation of this a couple of weeks ago and liked it but the presentation wasn't so smooth...

I love the way this is done. Comments?

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Petros » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:59 am

For whatever reason - most probably our less than blazing connection - this is not manifesting for me.


Can you summarize for those of us who are bandwidth challenged?
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:47 am

It's hard to describe... I'll look for a transcript somewhere...

You may also try clicking on the "YouTube" logo and letting that window download totally before playing...
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby jjsledge » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:03 am

I'm impressed with the presentation. I'll need to watch it again, later. I'd like a copy of the transcript if you can find it.

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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:24 pm

Although I've been able to find a different video, one that I saw first actually, I am unable to find a transcript.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:00 pm

There are truths in both presentations that he makes, however when he starts trying to contrast them and say that one is better or more accurate than the other, then what "he calls the patristic version" seems to be incompatible with the concept that Christ Died to pay for our sins. That payment is a legal concept about debt and payment, and being purchased with a price. and that concept does not seem to fit in with what he calls the patristic version. I think he has taken a large number of truths which are not contradictory separated them into two sets and argues that they represent two contradictory views. I think there is only one set of truths that reveal various aspects of one overall plan.

I believe he has created a false dichotomy. the incidents which he presents from scripture all belong to one truth and not to separate sides of a dichotomy.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:21 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:There are truths in both presentations that he makes, however when he starts trying to contrast them and say that one is better or more accurate than the other, then what "he calls the patristic version" seems to be incompatible with the concept that Christ Died to pay for our sins. That payment is a legal concept about debt and payment, and being purchased with a price. and that concept does not seem to fit in with what he calls the patristic version. I think he has taken a large number of truths which are not contradictory separated them into two sets and argues that they represent two contradictory views. I think there is only one set of truths that reveal various aspects of one overall plan.

I believe he has created a false dichotomy. the incidents which he presents from scripture all belong to one truth and not to separate sides of a dichotomy.



First, these are not just his views but the views widely held through the different veins of Christianity. The "Patristic View" comes from the Orthodox (Greek for instance) side of the family.

The other view comes from Calvin, through the Catholic church.

While there is some truth in either view, the issue that is the "sticking point" seems to be the way God treats those who sin as well as how he acts through the crucifixion.

Does God turn his face away from sinners? The most commonly held view that I know of in protestant churches says yes. There are a number of criticisms of that theory.

I would argue that God didn't "turn his face" from sinners, especially as he came to earth in the person of Christ. Did God turn his face on Christ? Those that support the idea look at Christ's utterance of the start of Psalm 22 as the proof that he did.

Rather than "forsaking" Christ on the cross, the orthodox branch of the faith often shows Christ with angels nearby. I've heard of one image (I was unable to find it) with Christ in the arms of God on the cross.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:16 am

bn2bnude wrote: .... First, these are not just his views but the views widely held through the different veins of Christianity. The "Patristic View" comes from the Orthodox (Greek for instance) side of the family. The other view comes from Calvin, through the Catholic church.
Well perhaps my statement would be more clear had I written "He presents a flase dichotomy" When I said he creates a false dichotomy I was referring to putting the to interpretations side by side, not creating each of them.

bn2bnude wrote: ....While there is some truth in either view, the issue that is the "sticking point" seems to be the way God treats those who sin as well as how he acts through the crucifixion. .....
Exactly what Christ meant when he expressed "My God My God why hast thou fosaken me?" Is not defined in the scripture. And as an enigmatic statement prompts humans to propound theories to explain it.

However what was presented as the patristic viewpoint, seems to be lacking in explaining such scriptures as
In Chapter 59 and verse 2, Isaiah wrote:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
And since God does not change and is the same yesterday today and forever, It is reasonable to say that in some sense God does withdraw from us if we choose the way of sin. So trying to contend that God does not withdraw from us when we insist on the way of sin by never turning the "God chair" with its back toward the"man chair" is not fully accurate either.

God does back off from his relationship with us if we insist on sin, however he is always ready to repair that breech if we come to our senses.
In chapter 1 and verse 18, Isaiah also wrote:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Or with emphasis on coming to our senses one might also consider the account of the "Prodigal Son" in Luke 15:11-24 when of the prodigal son it says in verse 17 "....And when he came to himself, he said, ...."

Clearly the "patristic" viewpoint that was presented misses the point that In some sense God does withdraw from us when we choose sin, and there is a separation. Now that does not mean that God gets in a snit and goes off in some corner to pout! So if that is what one thinks is happening in the so called "Judicial" view, then that is wrong too. Nevertheless God does withdraw until we are ready to come to him.

Now just exactly what was happening during the execution of Christ when he made the famous "why have you forsaken me" comment remains conjecture. But if Christ was to fulfill the scripture where
in Hebrews, chapter 2 and verse 17, Paul wrote: 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Then at least the "Judicial" viewpoint offers one way of conceiving of the temptation humans experience when God is withdrawn from us because of our sins. If the Judicial viewpoint happens to present this in an overly harsh manner, then that is an error of interpretation. But if the "patristic" version portrays a scenario in which God does not withdraw from sinners while they persist in sin, then it ignores part of the message of the "prodigal son".

If we insist on our own way of sin, God will let us have it, and when we are fed up with the disaster we have created he will help us pick up the pieces and turn to his way. In Deuteronomy 30:19 God sends us the message.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
God does not deny us the opportunity to choose the way of sin, but he does warn us of where it leads and implores us and calls to us to not go that way.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Jon-Marc » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:07 pm

I'm unable to see videos with my Wi Fi Internet.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:31 pm

Jon-Marc wrote:I'm unable to see videos with my Wi Fi Internet.

Are you sure that it is the wi-fi connection that is at fault?

Adobe flash player changes so often that i frequently find that I cannot play some videos just because they are in the new format but others that were put up with the previous version still play just fine.

I do not allow automatic updates because
-- I have seen software disabled by updates of the operating system and
-- The next time I go to use a piece of software I want it to work the same as last time
-- I prefer to make updates when I have the time to understand new or changed features.
-- with companies like Adobe, I do not trust them to not slip in some more of their invasive "super cookies" with the update!

So if the issue is that the video does not respond to the play command it may be an incompatibility problem with the version you have and the version the video was recorded in.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Petros » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:32 pm

I still have not been able to see the thing, but enough has been said I think i get the gist and can live without the grit.


God - and gospel, end times and even the most minimal of mysteries - is an inconceivably hude and complex elephabnt and even the most dedicated of us wise bland men / blind wise men can only get at a fery few parts.



Wise men and bilnd me - humans, if you will - are so nonstituted that they WILL assume the parts of the elephand with their grasp are IT, that all others are in error if not damned, and argue or fight for their position on the elephant as trunk or leg.



What is amazing is it seems he has manasgded to resolve it into TWO gospels.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:24 pm

Petros wrote:I still have not been able to see the thing, but enough has been said I think i get the gist and can live without the grit.


God - and gospel, end times and even the most minimal of mysteries - is an inconceivably hude and complex elephabnt and even the most dedicated of us wise bland men / blind wise men can only get at a fery few parts.



Wise men and bilnd me - humans, if you will - are so nonstituted that they WILL assume the parts of the elephand with their grasp are IT, that all others are in error if not damned, and argue or fight for their position on the elephant as trunk or leg.



What is amazing is it seems he has manasgded to resolve it into TWO gospels.

Based on the words I have bolded and made red, and noting the timestamp of 1:01 AM I am inclined to think that you need more sleep before posting. :wink: ...... But I think that I still got your point.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Jon-Marc » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:04 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
Jon-Marc wrote:I'm unable to see videos with my Wi Fi Internet.

Are you sure that it is the wi-fi connection that is at fault?


I have no idea since I'm barely functional on a computer. I bought this laptop used and supposedly re-built on E-Bay. Videos will play, but they keep pausing every few seconds. That is very frustrating when you try to watch a video.
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:58 pm

Jon-Marc wrote:I have no idea since I'm barely functional on a computer. I bought this laptop used and supposedly re-built on E-Bay. Videos will play, but they keep pausing every few seconds. That is very frustrating when you try to watch a video.

Ok, I see what the problem is. The WiFi connection that you have is not fast enough. Sooooo, try the following

A.
Start the video, If it starts with an Ad, wait it out until you can skip the rest of it and get to the real video. Then, after the video starts, click the pause button and see if the video will continue to load.
a) Some will not,
b) some will load for a little bit and stop and
c) some will completely load
In cases b and a just click the play button and see if in case b it is enough of a head start or in case c just enjoy the video.
B.
If technique A. did not produce satisfactory results, just turn the volume to zero and do something else*, while the video plays in fits and starts., then when it has finished, click the replay button and see if you don't get a smooth play. If you find yourself back in technique A. well awww crap! :argh: But if it worked :fantastic:

Other than that you might try the video direct from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnj52gaauBs

* Something else = something on the computer that hopefully does not suck up a lot band witdth or something else, like make a cup of coffee
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Re: Contrasting views of the Gospel

Postby Petros » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:47 am

Bare_Truth wrote:
Petros wrote:I still have not been able to see the thing, but enough has been said I think i get the gist and can live without the grit.


God - and gospel, end times and even the most minimal of mysteries - is an inconceivably hude and complex elephabnt and even the most dedicated of us wise bland men / blind wise men can only get at a fery few parts.



Wise men and bilnd me - humans, if you will - are so nonstituted that they WILL assume the parts of the elephand with their grasp are IT, that all others are in error if not damned, and argue or fight for their position on the elephant as trunk or leg.



What is amazing is it seems he has manasgded to resolve it into TWO gospels.

Based on the words I have bolded and made red, and noting the timestamp of 1:01 AM I am inclined to think that you need more sleep before posting. :wink: ...... But I think that I still got your point.



Fair enough - but I type about the same at 11:00 AM and 3:00 PM
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