the "Nones"

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the "Nones"

Postby ezduzit » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:01 pm

This left me speechless , perhaps a good label tho ?
Ez

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

http://theweek.com/article/index/260095 ... -religious
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:45 pm

So, I've got to ask, why are you speechless?
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:32 pm

Quite - because it sounds to me very business as usual.

"Until religion comes to grips with and responds creatively to the fact of pluralism, it will find itself embroiled in a battle against reality."

Same old same old - we have to talk to the young in sound bites, we can't apply the decalogue literally, the party must stop acting as if it believes X if it wants to win, we cannot teach that subject if we want students - and on and on.

Religion can and shoul;d be clear that there IS mystery, not all is told us.

But "battle against reality"? Like what is more real, in theology or any other science, than the unknown.

We do not need to be all that creative - just realize that there is no simple correspondence between winning souls and augmenting membership lists.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby bn2bnude » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:04 am

Here are my thoughts as I read the article...

What can be expected when you see a religion offered to people that is weak and powerless. On one side, you have conservatives who worship everything about religion except for Jesus (although it is called God) making it powerless. On the other, you have people who worship a social gospel that, while doing what Jesus told us to do, doesn't offer transformation.

Discipleship is in a terrible state -- I would argue we don't have a proper definition -- and as such those that claim to worship God are not seeing transformation.

Years ago, Frank Viola and Leonard Sweet, two men from different doctrinal backgrounds, wrote the following... It was followed by a book called "The Jesus Manifesto".

Christians have made the gospel about so many things ... things other than Christ.

Jesus Christ is the gravitational pull that brings everything together and gives them significance, reality, and meaning. Without him, all things lose their value. Without him, all things are but detached pieces floating around in space.
It is possible to emphasize a spiritual truth, value, virtue, or gift, yet miss Christ . . . who is the embodiment and incarnation of all spiritual truth, values, virtues, and gifts.

Seek a truth, a value, a virtue, or a spiritual gift, and you have obtained something dead.

Seek Christ, embrace Christ, know Christ, and you have touched him who is Life. And in him resides all Truth, Values, Virtues and Gifts in living color. Beauty has its meaning in the beauty of Christ, in whom is found all that makes us lovely and lovable.

What is Christianity? It is Christ. Nothing more. Nothing less. Christianity is not an ideology. Christianity is not a philosophy. Christianity is the "good news" that Beauty, Truth and Goodness are found in a person. Biblical community is founded and found on the connection to that person. Conversion is more than a change in direction; it’s a change in connection. Jesus’ use of the ancient Hebrew word shubh, or its Aramaic equivalent, to call for "repentance" implies not viewing God from a distance, but entering into a relationship where God is command central of the human connection.

In that regard, we feel a massive disconnection in the church today. Thus this manifesto.

We believe that the major disease of the church today is JDD: Jesus Deficit Disorder. The person of Jesus is increasingly politically incorrect, and is being replaced by the language of "justice", "the kingdom of God", "values", and "leadership principles."


It continues from there.

Why am I not speechless? Because I look at what either side of the "Christian" religious discussion calls righteousness and found it lacking. If I've found it lacking I am sure that the "nones" have as well. I've at least drunk some of the "Kool Aid".
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby ezduzit » Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:37 am

bn2bnude wrote:So, I've got to ask, why are you speechless?


What can be said concerning this this?

"These are the "nones" — the roughly one fifth of all Americans, and 32 percent of those under 30, who profess no religious affiliation at all. For these tens of millions of people, religion is largely a matter of indifference."


Ez
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:06 am

Ah, well, oone sees your point, but one brought up in the shadow of Academia who lived mouch of his life inside the tower has seen so much of that it hardly has shock value.

It was more shocking, frankly, to become aware there are families even in the 1980s who hold hands to say grace even with a stranger at the table.

I do not say the statistic should not be seen with pity and fear, only that in my life it is no news. Just yesterday I read a piece by my [now late] professor in which he describes him self as a member of "Atheists for Jesus".
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:15 am

Petros wrote:Ah, well, oone sees your point, but one brought up in the shadow of Academia who lived mouch of his life inside the tower has seen so much of that it hardly has shock value.

It was more shocking, frankly, to become aware there are families even in the 1980s who hold hands to say grace even with a stranger at the table.

I do not say the statistic should not be seen with pity and fear, only that in my life it is no news. Just yesterday I read a piece by my [now late] professor in which he describes him self as a member of "Atheists for Jesus".


I prefer to be involved in a group whose mission is: Jesus for Atheists (and every other religion on Mars Hill and elsewhere on this planet).
I am inclined to think that Pontius Pilate was at best an agnostic, maybe an atheist, a bitter cynic, cruel beyond measure, tough nut to crack.
God used his wife to try to reach him, but he was apparently too stubborn to heed the call to repentance, blind to the glory of Jesus himself in his court room.
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby ezduzit » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:44 am

A thought ............. how many of the "nones" are opposed to nudity? And what is their reasoning if "religion" ie Christianity or The Bible is not accepted as a "rule" or guideline for their life?
Is it a case of .......... "Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."
Who decides if stealing , murder, etc, etc is right or wrong? Have we as Christians
" conformed " humanity instead of "transforming" them and ourselves ?
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Just say`n Ez
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:14 am

We are NOT at every man did. Most people - most of the nones - are surrendered to a wind-dancing more than Levitical legalism. Each day they ask not what is God's will but what does the CODE say I should be.

Ramblinman - an interestingly different take on Pilate. Most seem to take him as weak, caving to political pressure.

Seems to me his recorded actions could fit either reading, it is a question of HOW he did what he did.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby natman » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:35 am

ezduzit wrote:A thought ............. how many of the "nones" are opposed to nudity? And what is their reasoning if "religion" ie Christianity or The Bible is not accepted as a "rule" or guideline for their life?


It is interesting to point out that naturism/nudism is severely oppressed in many of the atheistic or secular nations. Where naturism had thrived in Germany before the war, under Russian control, naturism was forbidden during the occupation of East Germany. Now that a the two halves have been restored, it appears to be thriving once again.

ezduzit wrote:Is it a case of .......... "Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."


I think that it is closer to, "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death." Prov 14:12 and 16:25.

ezduzit wrote:Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Now we're talking. Renewing our minds to see things, including the nude human body, the way that God sees them is the best, perhaps ONLY, way to transform our societies for the good of all.
Just say`n Ez[/quote]
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Re: the "Nones"

Postby natman » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:58 am

bn2bnude wrote:
Christians have made the gospel about so many things ... things other than Christ.
...
We believe that the major disease of the church today is JDD: Jesus Deficit Disorder. The person of Jesus is increasingly politically incorrect, and is being replaced by the language of "justice", "the kingdom of God", "values", and "leadership principles."


Bn2bnude,

While I agree that there are a few, highly visible, "churches" (if you want to call them that) that have replaced the Truth and message of the Gospel with the "social gospel", and there are also some highly visible "churches" that have replace it with the "prosperity gospel", the larger segment of the mainline Church is still teaching THE Gospel of Jesus Christ and Christ alone. Although it should be, it is not a message that titillates the ear.

I am not surprised there are so many "Nones" today, or at any time in history. There have ALWAYS been more "Nones" than there have been "Christians" of any denomination, and there always will be on this side of Heaven. The problem (if you can call it that) is that Christian are called to be tolerant of the unsaved, even of their enemies, and to even love them and to pray for them to come to redemption. So even in societies where Christianity is the vast majority, eventually, non-Christians will move in and thrive, initially attracted by the fair, charitable and friendly environment, but then attempting to change it to eliminate the very thing that made it fair, charitable and friendly to begin with. This is what I believe has happened over and over again in Europe and is happening today in America and Canada.

As Christians, I think that we get very frustrated when we see this trend. But then, I think that we forget that we are not called to change societies. We are not called to try to build a "Christian" utopia here on Earth. Rather, we are called to spread the Gospel, allowing the Holy Spirit to change people, one heart at a time... "...until the number of the Gentiles is complete." (Rom 11:24-26).
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Re: the "Nones"

Postby vycna » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:42 pm

I view it as an unfortunate thing that there are a good number who say they are believers that do not desire direct fellowship in company of other believers. This is what it amounts to with desire to not be in organized fellowship, or church. If they have real Christian faith, they lack a lot of the possible opportunity for development and growth in Christ. God will work with those that are really his, but they are not doing what he calls them to do, to be really assembled together with other believers, in Christ, that he would be among them. I am concerned if Christian nudists do this. It would be alright if they spent the time that would be in a formal church in real Christian fellowship with other nudists that are also Christian believers. This is good to have but they need to be there, otherwise time with a church is lost, with drawing close to God and learning, that is not replaced with something as worthwhile.
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby MoNatureMan » Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:09 am

I don't know about other parts of the world, but what can we expect.
In America we have allowed the 'public schools' to teach 'values clarification' or what ever they call it today. This doctrine of the schools teaches children to reject the values of family and church and to make your own values. With this teaching there is no supreme law (10 commandments / Scripture).
I can't figure out how they can arrest someone for murder if that person made a decision in their mind that it is OK to do. Yes, according to what is taught in the 'public schools' , it is perfectly OK for a student to kill his classmates, if it is his moral value.

Add to that the teaching of subjects that call for the rejection of a Creator God.
We must also note that religions other then Christianity are taught in the 'public schools'.

All of this brainwashing in the 'public schools is making the Devil jump for joy.

Matthew 18:66 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Add to that the media and other parts of our society that add to the anti-God brainwashing of America's children. Now they are growing up and don't want anything to do with God. I wonder why???????

And the church stood silent.
What can we expect.

In Him
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby bn2bnude » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:37 am

vycna wrote:I view it as an unfortunate thing that there are a good number who say they are believers that do not desire direct fellowship in company of other believers. This is what it amounts to with desire to not be in organized fellowship, or church. If they have real Christian faith, they lack a lot of the possible opportunity for development and growth in Christ. God will work with those that are really his, but they are not doing what he calls them to do, to be really assembled together with other believers, in Christ, that he would be among them. I am concerned if Christian nudists do this. It would be alright if they spent the time that would be in a formal church in real Christian fellowship with other nudists that are also Christian believers. This is good to have but they need to be there, otherwise time with a church is lost, with drawing close to God and learning, that is not replaced with something as worthwhile.

I spent an overnight to make sure I answered this well.

I am a "none". It's not that I won't go to a church. It is, however, that I don't regularly go to a church.

That does not mean, however, that I am "forsaking fellowship" as vycna implies above. I regularly go to a small group Bible study that is sponsored by the church we last regularly attended. I have and meet frequently with friends who are also believers. I spend a weekend two or three times a year with some dear friends for the purpose of fellowship.

How did I get here? If you read my post above, you can see some of my frustration with churches in this day and age. That, believe it or not was not it. In my case, I was asked to stop going to church by, I believe, God. I know that may be a shock to some of you.

I had started down a road years ago where the church had switched on a love for God and Jesus I hadn't had for quite some time. That manifested itself, however, in idolatry. Making the church an idol. Not the fault of the church honestly. At the same time, I was struggling with the sermons I was hearing not matching up with the scripture and, as a result, the things I was newly coming to believe. It's not that the church was preaching heresy. It's that my beliefs were in flux. Ultimately, I heard a voice telling me... "You need to get to know me (God), not my church".

I went to Hebrews 10:25 to see what it really says. What I came to the conclusion from both the scripture as well as with the help of some others (that is a different story and I won't relate it here) was this was not talking about what we call "Church".

To answer some of vycna's concerns...
    In my experience of several people who are "nones", they are not hermits trying to "do their own thing". Instead, they are fellowshipping with those that God brings into their lives.
    In my case and in the case of others, the situation is not that we won't go back to a church. The issue is more that we are waiting for God to return us to a particular church.
    With regards to "development and growth in Christ", my relationship with Christ has improved, not died, since leaving the church. I've replaced the input of the weekly sermon with other things, including regular Bible study and reading. Input and discussion with other believers, etc.
    I am doing what God called me to do at this point in time. This may not be what God is calling anyone else here to do but it is what I was asked
    I don't believe, anymore, that the goal of a Christian life is to learn. In fact, Scripture states that knowledge "puffs up". I believe that the goal of a Christian life is relationship. If you have the relationship with Christ, the "learning" I need will come.

I'm willing to continue a dialog about this. I am, however, unwilling to answer accusations.
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If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:41 am

Much of which I can echo / have echoed. However:

" In my experience of several people who are "nones", they are not hermits trying to "do their own thing". Instead, they are fellowshipping with those that God brings into their lives.

In my case and in the case of others, the situation is not that we won't go back to a church. The issue is more that we are waiting for God to return us to a particular church."

One of the diseases besetting mankind is the Green Monkey Syndrome, Consensus fever. If 90% of the people in town are Methodists, there must be something wrong with the 10%. If 90% of the Methodists attend the midweek prayer meet, the 10% must be deluded. If 90% of those at the prayer meeting pray in tongues [unlikely witrh the Motrhodists, but this town is a special case] the 10% are in error.

And so on.

Clearly, I do not see that there is anything wrong with hermits, else why the Desert Father postings? We do not have a Green Monkey condemning God. The hermit, the traveller through the wilderness, the misssioner in pagan lands, Paul imprisoned in Rome - these are all paths God chooses and endorses.

If we took Consensus law to its logical destination, everyone here ,ust be een as demonized.
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