the "Nones"

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Re: the "Nones"

Postby ezduzit » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:43 pm

ezduzit wrote:This left me speechless , perhaps a good label tho ?
Ez

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

http://theweek.com/article/index/260095 ... -religious


I posted this originally to point out two things.............

1) the vast majority of people who do not know Christ AND
2) Is it the vast majority that have decided nudity is taboo for modern day society ?
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:41 pm

I doubt very much that in the majority of cases it is the makority that decide anything. The majority observe the najority - or a visible vocal minority - doing thinking saying and slide into this is how one should do think say.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:49 am

ezduzit wrote:1) the vast majority of people who do not know Christ AND
2) Is it the vast majority that have decided nudity is taboo for modern day society ?

with regards to #1...

My personal opinion is the majority of people do not KNOW Christ but many more know Jesus. It may not be the same description of Jesus that you or I know but they know something about him. A guy that I know of went to Boulder, our local liberal (politically, religiously, etc.) mecca wandering down the pedestrian mall asking people "What do you think about Christianity?" Every response was negative. He then went back down the mall asking people "What do you think about Jesus?" Every response was positive.

With regards to #2

I don't know that it's the majority of people who decide nudity is bad. Those that seem most concerned about that seem to call themselves Christians and seem to want to ban nudity "to protect the children". A claim that I can't quite fathom because the children usually don't care.

Again, back to Boulder. In the last few years, they proved to be an exception to my statement above. They have now banned the "Naked Pumpkin Run" and a flair up with a home owner who was tending her garden topless a couple of blocks from a school.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:06 am

bn2bnude wrote:With regards to #2

I don't know that it's the majority of people who decide nudity is bad. Those that seem most concerned about that seem to call themselves Christians and seem to want to ban nudity "to protect the children". A claim that I can't quite fathom because the children usually don't care.

Again, back to Boulder. In the last few years, they proved to be an exception to my statement above. They have now banned the "Naked Pumpkin Run" and a flair up with a home owner who was tending her garden topless a couple of blocks from a school.

If we ban everything that causes offense to someone, then everyone is sure to be offended! :D
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:01 am

Ah - but we won't do that. There is always a list of those who have a "right" to be offended.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby ezduzit » Thu May 01, 2014 12:20 pm

Another "Nones" article ..................
Ez

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... -the-nones
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby bn2bnude » Fri May 09, 2014 10:58 pm

Here is a blog post that directly relates to this issue..

The author wrote a book called "Why Nobody Wants To Go To Church Anymore"

The post can be found in it's completeness here.
4 Reasons the Majority Stay Away from Church
SEPTEMBER 4, 2013 BY THOM SCHULTZ
Most people don’t want to go to church. But why? And what might interest them in joining a community of faith?

Those questions have sent us across the country looking for answers. After years of research and countless interviews, my wife Joani and I have finally collected our findings. They’re in a new book titled, no surprise, Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore, with a subtitle of “And How 4 Acts of Love Will Make Your Church Irresistible.”

We found four recurring themes why the majority avoids church. Here’s a sneak preview from the book:

1. “I feel judged.” Gabe Lyons’ and David Kinnaman’s research in their book UnChristian confirms that “church people judge me.” According to their studies, 87 percent of Americans label Christians as judgmental. Fair or unfair, most people view the church as critical, disapproving, and condemning. Whether it’s behavior, looks, clothes, choice of friends, lifestyle decisions, or whatever, the church has a solid reputation for acting as judge and jury over our individual differences.

2. “I don’t want to be lectured.” More than ever, people today want to participate in the discussion. One man told us he’s talked with more than a thousand other men who’ve given up on church. He said, “Guys don’t want to sit in a room and idly listen to some preacher do all the talking. They want to ask questions. They want to share their thoughts, too.” The same goes for women. They don’t want another one-way lecture.

3. “Church people are a bunch of hypocrites.” This isn’t a small minority talking. A whopping 85 percent make this claim. We know, we know. Every church leader in America is weary of this “excuse.” But people aren’t merely referring to incongruous behavior. What bothers them is the sense that church leaders act as if they alone have all the answers. As if they’ve arrived. As if they’re only interested in telling others what to do—“teaching,” to use ministry vernacular.

4. “Your God is irrelevant to my life. But I’d like to know there is a God and he cares about me.” Research by the Barna Group reveals that only 44 percent of people who attend church every week say they regularly experience God at church. They’re not looking for the deep theological trivia that seems to interest a lot of preachers. They crave something rather simple. They want to be reassured that God is real, that he is more than a historical figure, that he is present today, and that he is active in the lives of people around them.

Whether we like it or not, this is what the population is saying about the church today.

Now, as God’s people, we can defensively bark back and shift the blame to all those heathens and backsliders who’ve abandoned the church. But that will do nothing but hasten the decline of the American church.

Or, we can explore ways to better be the church. That’s what led us to the “four acts of love” we describe in the book. I’ll preview those in coming blog posts.

When it comes to the plight of the church, one thing’s for sure. God has not given up on his church. He’s at work, urging his people forward. We simply need to get on board.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones" ie Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore,

Postby ezduzit » Sat May 10, 2014 7:51 am

I read this with much interest , and as much as I want to address each reason /point individually I will not.
The bottom line is that we are living in a " Laodicean " age where God`s people have an attitude of SELF. " Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"
To expect the lost to attend "church" is an error , "church services" are for saved folk / those that are born again. Any and ALL excuses for not assembling with other believers will not "hold water" when we stand before the Lord , "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ"
Ez
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Re: the "Nones" ie Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore,

Postby bn2bnude » Sat May 10, 2014 8:02 am

ezduzit wrote:I read this with much interest , and as much as I want to address each reason /point individually I will not.
The bottom line is that we are living in a " Laodicean " age where God`s people have an attitude of SELF. " Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"
To expect the lost to attend "church" is an error , "church services" are for saved folk / those that are born again. Any and ALL excuses for not assembling with other believers will not "hold water" when we stand before the Lord , "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ"
Ez


It's interesting that you should say that...

A little while later the same author published this post.

Blame the Unchurched for Everything
OCTOBER 9, 2013 BY THOM SCHULTZ

They’re fed up with the unchurched and the dechurched. They’re sick and tired of their lame excuses for avoiding church.

Whenever anyone reports on the growing majority of people who choose to stay away from church, many church leaders put the blame on the lost sheep. For example, after my article, “4 Reasons the Majority Stay Away from Church” appeared, I heard from numerous leaders who reacted with contempt:

“People prefer to hear what they want to hear and will turn away from truth.”
“People love the darkness more than the light. People stay away from church because that means their sin, their selfishness, their shame all have to be dealt with.”
“People avoid church because they are – in their own way – avoiding Christ.”
“I believe that most people avoid church because they are trying to avoid being told – or found out – what they really are: sinners in need of redemption.”
“Three of the four reasons people don’t want to be in church are completely self centered.”
“Those not attending are often looking for excuses to not go rather than reasons to go.”
“Well, too bad, you need to be lectured.”
“Get over yourself.”
It’s not uncommon to feel attacked when others reject the structures in which we’ve invested our lives. The knee-jerk reaction is to attack back. Is it any wonder that 87 percent of the unchurched view Christians as judgmental?

After spending the last few years talking with and befriending hundreds of people who don’t go to church, these church leaders’ judgmental responses just hurt my soul. And they prompt me to ask some questions:

1. Do you know any unchurched people? Do you spend time listening to them? Are they your friends? Do you like them? Do you love them?

2. How is the condemnation thing working for you to bring in the condemned multitudes?

3. How would it work if businesses and other organizations took a similar approach? In the face of a downturn, would they gain ground by blaming and deriding their customers and prospects?

4. How will you ever improve and increase your effectiveness if you automatically blame others and find no room for self-improvement?

Condemning the lost sheep tends to convince leaders that they bear no responsibility for negative trends. And slamming the sheep–even if some of the accusations are valid–accomplishes nothing. It only wastes time, drives the sheep further away, and prevents the church from improving.

Please understand. I’m not suggesting we alter the message. I’m not suggesting that church outsiders (or insiders) are guiltless. I’m not denying that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” I’m simply suggesting we muster the humility to re-evaluate our methodology and old habits.

In our new book, Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore, we suggest some practical ways to pursue lost sheep: Radical Hospitality, Fearless Conversation, Genuine Humility, and Divine Anticipation. Each of these solutions focuses on what any church can do, proactively, to follow Jesus’ examples of effective ministry.

When faced with growing numbers of people who reject the church, it’s easy to get frustrated. It’s tempting to bite back. But that won’t help. What will help is this:

Don’t blame others. Refrain from finding the speck in the other’s eye. Take responsibility for the work God has given you.
Curb the defensiveness. Rather than bunkering in with the status quo, ask, “What can I learn? How can I improve?”
Lead with love. As Jesus did.

We will never retrieve lost sheep by attacking them, calling them ugly names, and blaming them for sagging ministry effectiveness.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Sat May 10, 2014 8:34 am

With regard to "feeling judged" - 'tain't just the pewholders. For every pastor who sees himself as the untimate anointed arbiter, there is one who trembles lest he misspeak and the board kick him out. For every pastor who sees himself as needing to cover his face like Moses, there is one who does not dare ask for prayer lest the vultures circle in [what, you are not invulnerable?]

It is a byproduct of the institution, basic human nature. Just as you cannot have a city without a sewage system, you cannot have an organization without a Great Oz supeman as leader.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones" ie why nobody.........

Postby ezduzit » Sat May 10, 2014 12:21 pm

1. Do you know any unchurched people?
define "unchurched " > lost people or cold backslider , apathetic Christians ?
Yes I do listen, yes they are my friends (some even my kinfolk) , yes I like them, and love them...
2. I do not condemn anyone , they are already condemned if they are lost ie NOT born again


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved..


3. A "church" is not and should not be considered as or run as a business

4. No automatic blame , and plenty of room for self improvement on my part.

Ez
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Re: the "Nones" ie why nobody.........

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat May 10, 2014 3:16 pm

ezduzit wrote:.....3. A "church" is not and should not be considered as or run as a business .....
I must Vehemently AGREE with ez' on this one!
-- In a business you must give the people what they want in order for you to prosper.
-- A church must give the people what they truly need and often do not know that they need it.
The closest any business comes to this is, some few that build a market by effectively educating their prospective customers of what advantages will accrue to the one who receives the product. Very few businesses do that today, as they more likely "sell the sizzle and not the steak"! Then when the customer is disappointed and disillusioned with the product, they go over to the competitor. ...... That is not the outcome we would want.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
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Re: the "Nones" ie why nobody.........

Postby ezduzit » Sat May 10, 2014 10:15 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
ezduzit wrote:.....3. A "church" is not and should not be considered as or run as a business .....
I must Vehemently AGREE with ez' on this one!
-- In a business you must give the people what they want in order for you to prosper.
-- A church must give the people what they truly need and often do not know that they need it.
The closest any business comes to this is, some few that build a market by effectively educating their prospective customers of what advantages will accrue to the one who receives the product. Very few businesses do that today, as they more likely "sell the sizzle and not the steak"! Then when the customer is disappointed and disillusioned with the product, they go over to the competitor. ...... That is not the outcome we would want.


Very well said !

Ez
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Re: the "Nones" ie why nobody.........

Postby bn2bnude » Sun May 11, 2014 8:27 am

Bare_Truth wrote:
ezduzit wrote:.....3. A "church" is not and should not be considered as or run as a business .....
I must Vehemently AGREE with ez' on this one!
-- In a business you must give the people what they want in order for you to prosper.
-- A church must give the people what they truly need and often do not know that they need it.
The closest any business comes to this is, some few that build a market by effectively educating their prospective customers of what advantages will accrue to the one who receives the product. Very few businesses do that today, as they more likely "sell the sizzle and not the steak"! Then when the customer is disappointed and disillusioned with the product, they go over to the competitor. ...... That is not the outcome we would want.

I believe, if you think the point the author was making is that the church should be run like a business, you are not understanding what he was trying to say.

Interesting to me that a few posts later, the author posted this.

The Anti-Business Church
JANUARY 22, 2014 BY THOM SCHULTZ

Someone always inevitably blurts the Old Statement: “The church is not a business.”

When a lay person uses a metaphor from the business world in a church meeting, you can count on someone chiding the person with the Old Statement. “The church is not a business.”

When someone suggests the church employ sound–and legal–employment practices, someone eventually resists, announcing that “the church is not a business.”

When people (like me) suggest that the church might learn some helpful leadership lessons from the business world (as I did in last week’s article about the demise of the Eastman Kodak Company), someone predictably drags out the Old Statement. “The church is not a business.”

Well, the Old Statement has become a tired, unhelpful, harmful saying. And the closed-minded thinking behind the Old Statement is part of the reason the American church is stuck. I’m afraid the dismissive utterance of “the church is not a business” has become a lazy excuse for mediocrity. Let me explain.

Of course the church is not a business. Neither is it a farmer’s field. Or a fishing hole. Or a medical office. But that does not mean that the church cannot learn something from those non-church settings. In fact, Jesus used those very settings–and many more–to help people learn about how to be the church. “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.” “I will send you out to fish for people.” “It is not the healthy who need a doctor.”

Jesus used parables and metaphors from another setting to help people see things in a new way. He did not cheapen his message by using these metaphors and parables. He did not imply that his church should actually become an agribusiness, a fishery, or a medical clinic. He simply helped people identify with what they knew outside the church–to learn what they might apply inside the church.

But, not everyone appreciated Jesus’ teaching methodology. His detractors found his challenges too uncomfortable and convicting.

Those detractors live on today, attempting to squash discussions with snide dismissals such as, “The church is not a business.” Too often the Old Statement is used as a door-slamming defense of the slothful status quo. “We’ve never done it that way before.”

And, repeating this Old Statement often comes off as a contemptuous slam at those in the congregation who work in the business world. “The church is not a business” sometimes drips with disdain for business people. They infer, “The church should never stoop to the cesspool of the farmer, or the fisherman, or the doctor.” That subtle inference is driving away some of our best lay people, who happen to earn their living in the marketplace. And that is a serious loss. D. Michael Lindsay, Gordon College president and author of Faith in the Halls of Power, has documented that legions of our country’s accomplished leaders with strong Christian faith have fled the church because they feel their real world experience is dismissed and despised by church leaders.

Of course some farmers, fishermen and doctors conduct their businesses in dishonest ways. So do some church leaders. But that’s no reason to categorically throw out everything that a profession may teach us, simply because of some “bad apples.”

And, not everything in one profession transfers to another. Of course the church’s “bottom line” should not be a financial figure. But the church can learn useful lessons about pursuing its true mission from other settings, such as the farm, the fishery, and the clinic.

A FRUSTRATED BUSINESS GUY

Recently I received an email from a life-long churchman who read our book, Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore. He wrote: “I decided to visit other churches of all denominations to verify the validity of all I had heard about the demise of Christianity. I found what I was hearing was true.

“I am finding most churches are not willing to consider changes that would bring people to Christ and save their churches from dying soon. I am finding most ministers theologically qualified but resistant to anyone from outside their church suggesting any change. I have 50 years experience in entrepreneurial companies and find it crazy for ministers in dying churches so tied to doctrine and ego that they refuse to explore ways to turn their church around and become a refuge for believers and unbelievers alike.”

It’s literally true. The church is not a business. But that’s no excuse for lazy resistance to ideas that can help the church fulfill its mission. I close with another of Jesus’ business examples: “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.”
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Sun May 11, 2014 9:07 am

A lot depends on definitions.

Is a church - as one pastor of my acquaintance would say - an activist outreach designed to get people to sign the petition of "like" Christ on Facebook? In which case one set of "business" tactics apply.

Is a church a clubhouse for the likeminded? A different st of "business" tactics would be appropriate to manage it.

Meanwhile THE Church proceeds through the actgivity of the Spirit, who may use either type of church but does not need our Org Chart or corporate structure.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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