Death sentence for being a Christian

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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby bn2bnude » Sat May 17, 2014 1:24 am

ezduzit wrote:Those doing the persecution weren`t Christians
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Ez

It's a bit of an interesting quandary. Augustine and others would claim that the solution is the concept of "Just war theory".

In other words, those that were doing the persecuting were not murdering but instead, were defending the faith and, like Israel before them, eliminating those who were not of the faith from what was considered their "promised land".

For instance, the one situation I mentioned above took place in Albi, France sometime around 1200. While you can contend those who were persecuted were not truly Christian because they were branded heretics, it doesn't diminish the actions.

With regards to the Anabaptists, they were branded criminals because their belief in a second baptism as a believer proved to be a disturbance in the general societal order that the Church (Roman Catholic as well as the reformed churches).

The page above has the following story that I summarized in my post above.
Dirk Willems of Holland was re-baptized when he became a believer, thus rejecting the infant baptism practiced at that time. This action, plus his continued devotion to his new faith and the re-baptism of several other believers in his home — led to his subsequent arrest and martyrdom.

An officer came to arrest him at the village of Asperen. Running for his life, Dirk came to a frozen pond. After making his way across in great peril, he realized that his pursuer had fallen through the ice, and into the freezing water.

Turning back to save the drowning officer, Dirk dragged him safely to shore. The man wanted to release Dirk, but a burgomaster, having appeared on the scene — reminded him that he was under oath to deliver criminals to justice. Dirk was bound off to prison, interrogated, and tortured in an unsuccessful effort to make him renounce his faith. He was tried and found guilty of having been re-baptized, of holding secret meetings in his home, and of allowing baptism there — all of which he freely confessed. "Persisting obstinately in his opinion", Dirk was burned at the stake near his hometown on 16 May 1569, by these blood-thirsty, ravening wolves — enduring it with great steadfastness.


I would suggest that, rather than just claiming those involved were not "Christians", you learn the history involved. It is NOT pretty. What it does tell us, however, is the world and people in it are broken (we are broken eikons). They say, I believe, that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby jasenj1 » Sat May 17, 2014 6:19 am

Petros wrote:And of course one who is NOT a Christian may become a Christian after any number of heinous actions [we will sing Amazing Grace at this point].

Correct. Saul/Paul hunted and killed Christians before his conversion. After his conversion he had some pretty stern things to say about those who would preach a false gospel and deceive the Church. It's not much of a stretch to say Christians would seek to purge the flock of evil - witches, heretics - and kill them in various ways (burning, drowning, stoning, etc.).

Even today there are those who think various sinners should be eliminated - homosexuals, child molesters. Humans have a really bad track record of keeping our violent tendencies in check, even after we've been born again.

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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby ezduzit » Sat May 17, 2014 7:11 am

IMO the "true believers" ie Christians, those born again were the persecuted NOT the persecutors . I stand by my conviction that it is not permitted to murder / kill in the name of The Lord and those that think they have done it for God are in for a rude awakening .
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby natman » Sat May 17, 2014 8:01 am

bn2bnude wrote:It's a bit of an interesting quandary. Augustine and others would claim that the solution is the concept of "Just war theory".

In other words, those that were doing the persecuting were not murdering but instead, were defending the faith and, like Israel before them, eliminating those who were not of the faith from what was considered their "promised land".


As far as I know, "Defending the Faith", apart from upholding the Biblically inspired value of human life, is not a part of the definition of the "Just War Theory".

just war theory
The just war theory is a largely Christian philosophy that attempts to reconcile three things: taking human life is seriously wrong. states have a duty to defend their citizens, and defend justice. protecting innocent human life and defending important moral values sometimes requires willingness to use force and violence.


For example, one of the reasons given for America's involvement in Iraq (wheterh entirely true or not) was that it was justified according to the "Just War Theory" in that we were there to suppress the oppression, torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of northern Iraqi citizens, the vast majority of whom were not Christians, but Muslims, by the Iraqi government under Saddam Hussein.

bn2bnude wrote:I would suggest that, rather than just claiming those involved were not "Christians", you learn the history involved. It is NOT pretty. What it does tell us, however, is the world and people in it are broken (we are broken eikons). They say, I believe, that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


I realize that there are many who claim that the Gospel message is "simple", "Believe in your heart and proclaim with your lips that Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and you will be saved.". However, I do think it is important to know precisely "Who" Jesus is and "WHAT" He Himself stood for in order to actually "believe" lest we place our faith and trust in a different "Jesus" (false god) or a "Jesus" of our own creation (idolatry). Nowhere do I see God the Father nor God the Son instructing us to take human lives, and particularly "Christian" lives, merely to "defend the faith". (The people whom God instructed the Israelites to kill were taking the lives of their own children by burning them alive on the altar to the false god, Molech.) Rather, we are to love the lost to Christ. And if someone claiming to be "Christian" is partaking in heresy, we are given instructions, not to kill them, but to sever fellowship with them, hopefully for a season.

bn2bnude wrote:I would suggest that, rather than just claiming those involved were not "Christians", you learn the history involved. It is NOT pretty. What it does tell us, however, is the world and people in it are broken (we are broken eikons). They say, I believe, that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


I agree. But we MUST understand that those who perpetrated the Crusades or any taking of life in the name of Jesus apart from just capital punishment for premeditated and intentional murder were and are "misguided", including those today who attempt to justify the killing of homosexuals and perverts. In my opinion, the serve a different "Jesus" than the one depicted in Scripture.
SON-cerely,
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Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby bn2bnude » Sat May 17, 2014 8:27 am

bn2bnude wrote:It's a bit of an interesting quandary. Augustine and others would claim that the solution is the concept of "Just war theory".

In other words, those that were doing the persecuting were not murdering but instead, were defending the faith and, like Israel before them, eliminating those who were not of the faith from what was considered their "promised land".

You may be right.

I know that about a year after Constantine "legalized" Christianity (and this does precede Augustine) the first heretic was executed by the church leadership.

natman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I would suggest that, rather than just claiming those involved were not "Christians", you learn the history involved. It is NOT pretty. What it does tell us, however, is the world and people in it are broken (we are broken eikons). They say, I believe, that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


I realize that there are many who claim that the Gospel message is "simple", "Believe in your heart and proclaim with your lips that Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and you will be saved.". However, I do think it is important to know precisely "Who" Jesus is and "WHAT" He Himself stood for in order to actually "believe" lest we place our faith and trust in a different "Jesus" (false god) or a "Jesus" of our own creation (idolatry). Nowhere do I see God the Father nor God the Son instructing us to take human lives, and particularly "Christian" lives, merely to "defend the faith". (The people whom God instructed the Israelites to kill were taking the lives of their own children by burning them alive on the altar to the false god, Molech.) Rather, we are to love the lost to Christ. And if someone claiming to be "Christian" is partaking in heresy, we are given instructions, not to kill them, but to sever fellowship with them, hopefully for a season.

bn2bnude wrote:I would suggest that, rather than just claiming those involved were not "Christians", you learn the history involved. It is NOT pretty. What it does tell us, however, is the world and people in it are broken (we are broken eikons). They say, I believe, that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


I agree. But we MUST understand that those who perpetrated the Crusades or any taking of life in the name of Jesus apart from just capital punishment for premeditated and intentional murder were and are "misguided", including those today who attempt to justify the killing of homosexuals and perverts. In my opinion, the serve a different "Jesus" than the one depicted in Scripture.

I guess what I was trying to say is this...

Rather than just make a statement that "If A then B" or "If you are a Christian you won't murder" learn history and learn that life doesn't always present those simple views.

For instance, I know we split hairs between murder and killing...

Capital punishment is permissible for many Christians but murder would not be.
Lethal self defense would be permissible but shooting the guy across the street would not be.

As you point out....

For some, putting those with "perversions" is acceptable but murder is not

The contrasts could go on for quite some time.

Maybe the point EZ was trying to make is the issue of hatred of the other person. I can't tell, however, from the amount of text written.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby Petros » Sat May 17, 2014 9:04 am

Saul / Paul yes, and David and Bathsheba. While I do not rule out the possibility of her and now sanctification, like Paul I have not arrived and do not know any I could be too sure about.

I rather doubt God is smilingly endorsing just war, euthanasia, or whack the burglar [items like Canaanite ethnic cleansing and suffer no witch are problematic, but we will need to wait for the eplication]. Some of us [the queue starts behind me] sin daily and like Paul and David need to deal with the conseqwuences and keep repenting. Take what you like ....
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby jasenj1 » Sat May 17, 2014 9:16 pm

And lets throw into the mix missionaries of the Victorian era who "tamed the savages" and made them all wear clothes. And brought with them various diseases.

History is filled with people doing rather horrible things in God's name, and severely misinterpreting (by modern understanding) God's Word. One of the take aways I get from the long, colorful, and sometimes dark history of the Church is that we humans are prone to mess up (sin). It would be extreme hubris to think our modern time does not have some similar sins that make God cringe - but we are forgiven. And that is the miracle of salvation.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby ezduzit » Sun May 18, 2014 7:06 am

jasenj1 wrote:And lets throw into the mix missionaries of the Victorian era who "tamed the savages" and made them all wear clothes. And brought with them various diseases.

History is filled with people doing rather horrible things in God's name, and severely misinterpreting (by modern understanding) God's Word. One of the take aways I get from the long, colorful, and sometimes dark history of the Church is that we humans are prone to mess up (sin). It would be extreme hubris to think our modern time does not have some similar sins that make God cringe - but we are forgiven. And that is the miracle of salvation.



So if the Baptists made a decision to eliminate / kill all the Methodists next week , God would forgive the results of our "mess" ( sin) ?
With that reasoning we should not condemn the Muslism`s for murdering Christians or anyone else opposed to their agenda.
Point out in history anytime a true believers killed other believers because of a difference in doctrine / belief.
IMO it has always been those that put their faith in Christ AND believe HIS word that are persecuted / murdered / killed.
Ez
1Jn.4:19-21
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby bn2bnude » Sun May 18, 2014 9:12 am

ezduzit wrote:So if the Baptists made a decision to eliminate / kill all the Methodists next week , God would forgive the results of our "mess" ( sin) ?
With that reasoning we should not condemn the Muslism`s for murdering Christians or anyone else opposed to their agenda.
Point out in history anytime a true believers killed other believers because of a difference in doctrine / belief.
IMO it has always been those that put their faith in Christ AND believe HIS word that are persecuted / murdered / killed.
Ez
1Jn.4:19-21

One of your previous posts, you quoted the "if you hate your brother you've murdered them" (my paraphrase) verse.

I've seen a lot of hatred from pulpits directed towards brothers and sisters from other denominations. All in the name of being "right".

So, maybe not physical murder but if we listen to the words of Jesus, just as bad.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby Petros » Sun May 18, 2014 10:05 am

Unless we sign on with my former colleague who believes no one who is still capable of sin can be a Christian [and what that says of those likeminded you can imagine for yourself], we have to take it as an article of faith that even those most solidly in with Christ CAN sin and DO sin [and repent and seek forgiveness and change].

Who is to cast the first stone? I pray, I fast, I tithe, I honore the Sabbath, I cheat on my taxes. Maybe I should not throw the stone. [disclaimer - that is NOT an accurate description of this writer, but a hypothetical case]. If a Calvinist kills an Anabaptist and a Muslim kills the Calvinist and a Sikh kills the Muslim and a Parsee kills the Sikh [we could extend this] what is the difference?

And if my neighbour persecutes Mormons and I hide Mormons from him while carrying on with his wife, which is the truer Christian?

I do NOT know ANYBODY who is sanctified.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby jochanaan » Sun May 18, 2014 11:48 am

ezduzit wrote:...So if the Baptists made a decision to eliminate / kill all the Methodists next week , God would forgive the results of our "mess" ( sin) ?...

Only if they turned away from the sin, or intended sin, with all their hearts.

Something about forgiveness: It does not excuse the wrongdoing! That is and will always be horrible. But forgiveness exposes sin for what it is, and overcomes it. "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." --Romans 12:20-21
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby prairieboy » Sun May 18, 2014 6:37 pm

Petros wrote:I do NOT know ANYBODY who is sanctified.


Please define sanctified.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby prairieboy » Sun May 18, 2014 7:00 pm

ezduzit wrote:So if the Baptists made a decision to eliminate / kill all the Methodists next week , God would forgive the results of our "mess" ( sin) ?

The last I heard God is in the forgiving business, for which I am certainly greatful. If we repent, God will forgive the sin. However, we usually have to live with the results of the sin.

With that reasoning we should not condemn the Muslims for murdering Christians or anyone else opposed to their agenda.

I don't condemn the Muslims. They are only doing what they have been taught and trained to do. That does not mean that we should not work against it, particularly we should be preaching the gospel to them.

Point out in history anytime a true believers killed other believers because of a difference in doctrine / belief.

Someone can believe to the best of their knowledge, and still be trained to hate. Look at the children in Fred Phelps' church. Are those children true believers? That I can't answer. They have been taught to hate strongly. If they were told that there was a reward waiting in heaven for killing a homosexual, would they? There are a number of Christian sects that closely control what their members are taught. I can't give you an example of it happening, but I can see the potential for it.

IMO it has always been those that put their faith in Christ AND believe HIS word that are persecuted / murdered / killed.
Ez
1Jn.4:19-21

I would agree that this is what (almost?) always happens.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon May 19, 2014 10:01 am

natman wrote: ........Nowhere do I see God the Father nor God the Son instructing us to take human lives, ....... merely to "defend the faith".....
So what do you do with:
Exodus 22:
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

or
Deut 13: 2-
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams,....., saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
.......
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God,
......
6 ¶If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods,
.......
neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death,
.........
13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods,
........
15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

Not all of those cases involved child sacrifice.
Mostly they involved apostasy but Exodus 22:19 is bestiality which is contrary to the practices God specified for people of his religion but is not necessarily part of any other religion.

I think your statement is a bit in accurate or perhaps over-broad.
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Re: Death sentence for being a Christian

Postby Petros » Tue May 20, 2014 1:51 am

Sanctified?

Certain Christian varieties [Wesley was amongst them] hold that we can WHILE ON EARTH be sanctified, achieving mastery over sin.

Some - including my former colleague - maintain you can't REALLY be a Christian until you are sanctified, never to sin again.

Alls I can say, if that be true there be almighty few REAL Christians.
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