Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby bn2bnude » Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:39 pm

Ramblinman wrote:I know a Baptist church that was very conservative on the fundamentals, but had a fairly large number of "gay guys" coming as seekers. They were lovingly told that homosexual acts are forbidden by scripture, but that salvation was available to all who repent of this sin and any other sin for that matter. At first it was disturbing to see so many "obvious" men there, but if any of them got saved, and I trust that some did (and abandon sexual activity), it was a true work of the Holy Spirit. The pastor focused on the basics, did not sidestep the "gay" issue, but it was only a small part of his overall gospel message.

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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:36 pm

In 1st Corinthians 5: Paul wrote: 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Emphasis Added

I take Paul's meaning to be to not enter into fellowship with fornicators where your association is optional. I would simply like to have an option for recreation that excludes fornicators of all stripes married,unmarried homosexual zoosexual porn stars, et al.. Faithful polygyny would be borderline as at least in the Old Testament God seems to have allowed and even abetted polygyny without classifying it as fornication, albeit Jesus seems to have shown it not to be Plan A from the Edenic model.

Yes there is a list of sins there but I suppose I would prefer not to be with any in the entire list if that person tried to say that whichever one they were involved in was perfectly normal and not a sin. Not that we should not reach out to help out all sinners but that during our down time we should avoid such.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Petros » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:40 am

"I guess some homosexuals are "obvious" in their mannerisms or if they bring a person that they self-identify as a partner. Can you ban someone just because he seems to talk or act prissy or effeminate ? Or does he have to admit that he is not attracted to women or admit that he actually carries out sexual acts with men?"

In my lost youth I was puzzled that some labelled me queer in a sense I had not learned at the time. I am still puzzled, but differently.

On the other foot, the three people [no, four] who have asserted homosexuality in my hearing all came as total surprises to me.

Of two people who have been labelled homosexual by others in my hearing, one is known to be quite heterosexual by a young woman who would have been glad to have been more than casually used by him. The other? No clue

Interestingly, no homosexual ever seems to have received me as such however others have labelled me.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Petros » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:46 am

"Not that we should not reach out to help out all sinners but that during our down time we should avoid such."

But then there are Desert Fathers and others who seeing a sinner wept because their own [unexposed] sins were so much worse.

There would seem to be the choices:

A. condemn [and be condemned in turn, we are told].

B. avoid [assuming it to be possible - I have in my day found it VERY hard to avoided certain people I wanted nothing to do with]

C. associate [trusting that you will not be drawn into sin nor will draw THEM into sin, hoping that you may lift them up and out - or them you.

Hey-ho, I incline toward the solitary - and that is not so easy either.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby jochanaan » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:42 am

Bare_Truth wrote:
In 1st Corinthians 5: Paul wrote: 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Emphasis Added

I take Paul's meaning to be to not enter into fellowship with fornicators where your association is optional. I would simply like to have an option for recreation that excludes fornicators of all stripes married,unmarried homosexual zoosexual porn stars, et al....
I doubt that would be possible. It's kind of like going to our jobs, or an athletic club, or in my case being part of a musical ensemble: we cannot always tell whether all the others hold to our standards for belief and behavior when they're not in our company. My feeling is, as long as they don't do it or obsess about it in my presence, I can deal. And if they do bring it to our gatherings, we have every right to throw them out, and the owners and leaders of the gathering would probably do it.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby prairieboy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:09 pm

I thought this passage was where excommunication came from. We are supposed to be friends with sinners, just as Jesus was, but we are not supposed to legitimize the lifestyles of "believers" who refuse to stop sinning.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Petros » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:21 am

But what do we mean by "legitimize"?

If I am a Catholic priest and I see coming up for communion a person known to be an abortionist by profession and an adulterer by avocation who cheated on his income tax, I may be justified in telling him "No sacrament for you till you get right" - though I understand many will not choose so to do.

But if on a rainy day we share a taxi and discuss the World Series, or if I see him drowning, or he sees me drowning, or he is my brother - if I talk to him and save him or accept his help or share a meal with him, have I legitimized him? And is it him or the sin that is illegitimate, anyway?

Besides several Desert Father stories I could quote, there is Paul. If we are to stick with an unbelieving spouse who does not want to leave, should we shun Joe?

Let us remember, too - not only do many nonChristians - like my brother - see us as dangerous terrorists or at least fools who should maybe be avoided, but we know NONE here [I dare say it] is qualified to cast the first stone.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:02 am

prairieboy wrote:I thought this passage was where excommunication came from. We are supposed to be friends with sinners, just as Jesus was, but we are not supposed to legitimize the lifestyles of "believers" who refuse to stop sinning.

This is why we need to honor Scripture by using it in context (thanks for the reminder). If we go to the top of the passage we find the following things...

First, we find that 1 Corinthians is actually Paul's second letter to them (v 9-10).

Second, let's look at the situation. The Corinthians had a man sleeping with his fathers wife (step mother?) and that was disturbing to the pagans around them. On top of this, the Corinthians were boasting how they were so free to do this sort of thing (likely because of grace). Paul then tells the Corinthians to "hand him over to Satan" (NIV). (v 1, 2, 5).

Third, we find that Paul is NOT telling us to avoid everyone who is sexually immoral. In fact, he tells us to avoid those who are believers who are sexually immoral but do not judge the world (v 12, 13).

Petros wrote:But what do we mean by "legitimize"?

If I am a Catholic priest and I see coming up for communion a person known to be an abortionist by profession and an adulterer by avocation who cheated on his income tax, I may be justified in telling him "No sacrament for you till you get right" - though I understand many will not choose so to do.

But if on a rainy day we share a taxi and discuss the World Series, or if I see him drowning, or he sees me drowning, or he is my brother - if I talk to him and save him or accept his help or share a meal with him, have I legitimized him? And is it him or the sin that is illegitimate, anyway?

Besides several Desert Father stories I could quote, there is Paul. If we are to stick with an unbelieving spouse who does not want to leave, should we shun Joe?

Let us remember, too - not only do many nonChristians - like my brother - see us as dangerous terrorists or at least fools who should maybe be avoided, but we know NONE here [I dare say it] is qualified to cast the first stone.

Again, take it back to context...

Paul says (according to the NIV):
11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

Let's put this into cultural context... For the people in this culture community is EVERYTHING. For someone to be ousted from the community basically means life as they know it is over.

We are to judge this INSIDE the church and let God judge those outside.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Jon-Marc » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:06 pm

We are told in 1 John 5:13, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life." We can KNOW that we are born again--as Jesus said, "Ye must be born again."

There are religions and religious people who call themselves "Christian", but the only people who are Christians are those who are born again and KNOW that they have eternal life. Also, any religion that denies Jesus' is God is not Christian. One religion says that Jesus and Satan are brothers; that religion is NOT Christian. Another religion says that Jesus was created; that religion is NOT Christian. There are religions that say there are ways other than through Jesus where by we can be saved. God's word says, "there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved" but that of Jesus. He is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. There is NO other way to stand before the Father cleansed of sin but through Jesus.

A LOT of people will say, "I hope I'm going to heaven." Many even believe that God will weigh our bad against our good and see which is greater, and that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. Of course, there are those who say there is no hell, and others say there is neither heaven or hell.

People call themselves "Christian" for all kinds of reasons other than the fact of being forgiven of their sins, being born again, cleansed of their sins by the blood of the Lamb and placed in God's family. They go a church once in a while or regularly and say, "I'm a Christian." When I asked a woman if she was saved, she replied, "Yes, my husband and I were both raised that way." How one is raised does NOT determine if they are born again. When I asked one woman if she was a Christian, she replied, "Of course, I'm an American."

The belief that the USA is a "Christian nation" is a lot of nonsense. Even if the USA was founded on Christian values, that did not and does not make it a "Christian nation". That fact is obvious by all the evil in this country alone, murder for all kinds of reasons, rape, child molestation, theft, homosexuality, and their being allowed to marry, with laws passed to protect that wickedness, and drug and alcohol addiction and other addictions; the list seems to be endless. Becoming a child of God is an individual choice. In a song are the words, "You can have this whole world, but give me Jesus."

There is NO way for us to determine absolutely if a person is a Christian or not--even though the Bible does, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I've known some people who were not Christians who were kind and loving to others, generous and helpful toward others, and generally lived a much better "Christian-like" life than many who are supposedly actual Christians.

It would be possible to build a community on Christian values as America was, but would you be able to determine absolutely who is or is not truly a born-again Christian? You could, of course, ask questions that will determine where they are spiritually, but would you legally be able to say, "Sorry, you can't live here, because I don't believe you're a Christian."? There are laws made to protect everyone from being the victim of "prejudice" EXCEPT Christians and Christianity.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby ezduzit » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:04 pm

Jon-Marc wrote:We are told in 1 John 5:13, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life." We can KNOW that we are born again--as Jesus said, "Ye must be born again."

There are religions and religious people who call themselves "Christian", but the only people who are Christians are those who are born again and KNOW that they have eternal life. Also, any religion that denies Jesus' is God is not Christian. One religion says that Jesus and Satan are brothers; that religion is NOT Christian. Another religion says that Jesus was created; that religion is NOT Christian. There are religions that say there are ways other than through Jesus where by we can be saved. God's word says, "there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved" but that of Jesus. He is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life. There is NO other way to stand before the Father cleansed of sin but through Jesus.

A LOT of people will say, "I hope I'm going to heaven." Many even believe that God will weigh our bad against our good and see which is greater, and that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. Of course, there are those who say there is no hell, and others say there is neither heaven or hell.

People call themselves "Christian" for all kinds of reasons other than the fact of being forgiven of their sins, being born again, cleansed of their sins by the blood of the Lamb and placed in God's family. They go a church once in a while or regularly and say, "I'm a Christian." When I asked a woman if she was saved, she replied, "Yes, my husband and I were both raised that way." How one is raised does NOT determine if they are born again. When I asked one woman if she was a Christian, she replied, "Of course, I'm an American."

The belief that the USA is a "Christian nation" is a lot of nonsense. Even if the USA was founded on Christian values, that did not and does not make it a "Christian nation". That fact is obvious by all the evil in this country alone, murder for all kinds of reasons, rape, child molestation, theft, homosexuality, and their being allowed to marry, with laws passed to protect that wickedness, and drug and alcohol addiction and other addictions; the list seems to be endless. Becoming a child of God is an individual choice. In a song are the words, "You can have this whole world, but give me Jesus."

There is NO way for us to determine absolutely if a person is a Christian or not--even though the Bible does, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." I've known some people who were not Christians who were kind and loving to others, generous and helpful toward others, and generally lived a much better "Christian-like" life than many who are supposedly actual Christians.

It would be possible to build a community on Christian values as America was, but would you be able to determine absolutely who is or is not truly a born-again Christian? You could, of course, ask questions that will determine where they are spiritually, but would you legally be able to say, "Sorry, you can't live here, because I don't believe you're a Christian."? There are laws made to protect everyone from being the victim of "prejudice" EXCEPT Christians and Christianity.


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2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby vycna » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:06 pm

What is being Christian can be widely defined, such that it includes an calling themselves Christian and any that others call Christian, and this would be significantly larger number than counting Christians another way. Some prefer a much narrower definition, even restricting the definition to those of the same church. This will be an issue if it is permitted. A Christian Naturist Society will have to be meaningful though. As with any larger Naturist Society, it will need to consist of members who have locations where they go with other members of the same. Although I think faith in what the Bible says is important, I think the real basis, which may be used, to define Christians, is saying it for those who follow Christ and confessing that, with faith in him. I personally think it needs to include behavior of a changed life, with having come to repentance and with forgiveness known from that having grace, love, and compassion to show for any others. For it not to include hypocrisy, it should not be with arbitrary limits. With there being no attraction to nonhuman animals, which was brought up, one can still care about animals and have compassion with right choices for that.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby bn2bnude » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:40 pm

vycna wrote: personally think it needs to include behavior of a changed life, with having come to repentance and with forgiveness known from that having grace, love, and compassion to show for any others.

Repentance is an interesting topic...

How many of the people that Jesus personally forgave actually "repented" prior to (or a record of after for that matter) being forgiven.

Not that Paul doesn't mention repentance but we seem to put a much heavier weight on it than Jesus did. If that is so, why?
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Petros » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:14 pm

"the only people who are Christians are those who are born again and KNOW that they have eternal life."

Problem:

What of those [like my young associate Aram recently put forward for prayer or certain of the greatest of the Desert Fathers] who are clearly [so far as we can judge, anyhow] born again and following in the footsteps, but for whatever cause have concerns and doubts as to their ultimate salvation? What of the others who seem to themselves and the rest of us to be reborn and who are certain of their salvation, only to hear "I never knew you"?

Like many another definition, this, which relies on data not ascertainable by the lave, izs ov no practical use.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby prairieboy » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:15 pm

Thanks bn2bnude. You did an admirable job of fleshing out my three liner.

In answer to a different post.
As far as "casting the first stone" goes, it can not be compared. Stoning was a punishment, or penalty, while the goal of excommunication is restoration.

I read of a missionary in Mexico who had started a church in a distant village, but was able to have very little contact with them. After a long separation they wished to know if they had done the right thing. Some of their members had been in sin, so as discipline they had restricted their participation in church; they sat in the back, and they were not allowed to sing, or to give offerings. There may have been more, I don't remember. After a set period of time, having stayed away from the sin, they were restored to fellowship with great celebration.

I believe that is how it is supposed to work. Unfortunately around here many would see those as benefits, and anyway, if that church does not want me, there are a hundred more that do.
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Re: Could a "Christian Naturist Society" be formed

Postby Petros » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:27 pm

I do tend to check out the Desert Fathers:

Once there was a meeting of monks in Scetis, and they discussed the case of a guilty brother but Pior said nothing.

Afterwards he got up and went out, took a sack, filled it with sand, and carried it on his shoulders. He put a little sand in a basket and carried it in front of him.

The monks asked him, “What are you doing?” He answered, “The sack with a lot of sand is my sins; they are many, so I put them on my back and then I shall not weep for them. The basket with a little sand is the sins of our brother and they are in front of me, and I see them and judge them. This is not right. I ought to have my own sins in front of me, and think about them, and ask God to forgive me.”

When the monks heard this, they said, “This is the true way of salvation”
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