As well here as any

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As well here as any

Postby Petros » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:59 am

Though there are several possible venues. But I think other religions is the key here, the other religion being the established church in the USA today.

I saw a report on the recently added to the heap Homo naledi > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_naledi < It interested me partly because there appears to be evidence these [insert noun] buried their dead - NOT says the article that there was any religious ceremony, perish the thought, but they set them in a place that involved work for the living over a period of years and THAT is a cultural activity which links H naledi with "humans and neanderthals".

I've been watching the handling of H sapiens and H neanderthalensis for some time. There are several different assumed relationships which appear to be tied to ideologies. Before I get into that, this note: it seems to be believed by some, eg > http://www.theguardian.com/science/sift ... haeologist < that H neanderthalensis dressed. Given that at one point a lot of Neanderthals were living in icy parts while Sapiens was mainly in the tropics, it is conceivable - ponder it - that the original naturist / textile divide was a Sapiens / Neanderthal divide.

But:

Some want H sapiens and H neanderthalensis to be two varieties of a single species. This seems to be common among - but not limited to - Creation Research types motivated to minimize extrapolation from the sketchy Genedsis account.

The current crowd - the ones I find talking up H naledi - Are the opposite. "Humans and Neanderthals" says ONLY H sapiens is human, H neanderthalensis [in spite of evidence of interbreeding] DIFFERENT. This is not new - long ago I found and panned a rather stupid piece "establishing" that H neanderthalensis could not speak "human language". But it seems to be the new orthodoxy. I need to consult my paleontologicist brother, wording it carefully lest he take umbrage again.

I think this is a byproduct of the twitterocracy. If Neanderthals were human - then we Sapiens types bumped off an entire race. Sure, we all know humans are very bad planet destroying exploiters and racists. But wouldn't it be nice to think there was a golden age when we were noble savages with no religion [except for bonding with nature] and no industry, no industrialists and Tea Partizans? So we extinguished a few species and one of those was H neanderthalensis, but at least before religion we did not hate. If they are not human, we do not have to accuse our ancestors of social Darwinism

Of course, that is nowhere going to be explicit, but it mittors thought habits I haver observed.

So:

human = Sapiens and Neanderthalensis - Not good. Extinction guilt that encompasses all of humanity - with the POSSIBLE exception of those who did not leave Africa until much later.

human = Sapiens only, with Neanderthalensis a vaiety of sapiens - Not good unless you are some variety of creationist, who will not worry about extinction guilt.

human - Sapiens, Neanderthalensis inhuman and ideally not too closely related to Sapiens - Good, unless you are a minimal deviation Creationist, in which case you may have to appeal to the Nephilim > http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/Essays%206/Neaderthal.htm < , although not everyone wants to go there > https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible- ... -nephilim/ >

Whatever. What I get out of this is further confirmation that today's academics are ever less able to do science as opposed to promulgating a theory as prime motive.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: As well here as any

Postby JimShedd112 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:29 am

Wow!! I'm not even sureI know how to respondPetros, but you have certainly posed an interesting question regarding both creationism and evolution.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Petros » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:28 pm

At this point it is not so much a solicitation of response as it is "Here is a thing knocking around my skull, any one else feel like pondering?"

It IS big - Creation / Evolution, What IS human, Do Neanderthal or gorilla lives matter, How should science work, What is the place of science in belief systems and belief systems in science, What do our words mean -

A lot is old stuff revived by this recent mailing. I do not expect to hit a firm position soon - but looking at it.

I HATE the "of course this ritual burial did not involve anything like religion" bit - so much saluting Glorious Leader's picture on the bedroom wall.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Nov 10, 2015 5:01 pm

Some non-Africans have Neanderthal DNA, I think it came from the Neanderthal males.
We can argue that makes H. Sapiens less guilty of Neandercide. Neanderthal males took a liking to Homo sapiens women and offspring resulted.

A Russian boxer with skull morphology strongly showing Neanderthal ancestry.

According to U. of Arizona scientist Michael Hammer, among Africans are traces of DNA from non-Homo sapiens they mated with. Not as much is known about them, but outcome was similar to Neanderthal x Homo matings. How did he discern this? DNA tends to degrade in the tropics, so, lacking actual DNA, Hammer and his team did what any modern scientist would do: they wrote a computer program. Using modern human DNA, Hammer says, they were able to "simulate history" and sort of reverse-engineer human DNA. In doing so, they found evidence that Homo sapiens not only had sex with Neanderthals, they also interbred with Homo erectus, the "upright walking man," Homo habilis, the "tool-using man," and possibly others.

Among Asians and Pacific Islanders are genes from a Neanderthal cousin called Denisovans.

The unpleasant truth is that these non-Homo are (to put it politely) "archaic" populations, but in the course of natural selection, we hybrids who survive from all these unions inherited the intelligence of Homo and some of the immune system and other beneficial attributes of our dim-witted cousins.

By comparing the genomes of apes, Denisovans, Neanderthals, and modern humans, scientists hope to identify DNA segments unique to the different groups. Early results already suggest modern humans underwent genetic changes involved with brain function and nervous system development, including ones involved in language development, after splitting from Neanderthals and Denisovans.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Petros » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:53 pm

We would tell how if there were matings male Sapiens x female Neanderthalensis versus the alternative?
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:37 pm

Petros wrote:We would tell how if there were matings male Sapiens x female Neanderthalensis versus the alternative?

Yes to some extent.
Anything on the Y chromosome is passed down from father to son down through the ages unchanged except for the odd mutation.
Mitochondrial RNA is passed down from mother to sons and daughters down through the ages unchanged except for the odd mutation.
Whatever Mitochondrial RNA I have dies with me. Only my sister will pass down that same genetic material to sons and daughters.
X chromosomal DNA could come from either parent, but it tends to clump. Often a gene will bring an adjacent gene with it from either parent.
These combinations eventually break up over several generations.
Genes are phenotypically expressed to varying degrees depending on other hereditary factors and environment.
I have barely scratched the surface of human genetics.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Petros » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:22 am

Thanks - I have not in my time had much exposure to mitochondrial RNA lore, though one has heard of it. IO could likely get that much out of my brother. but only with much effort - possibly good for the soul, but I am not sure my soul needs it.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby jochanaan » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:04 am

Interesting thoughts, Petros. Did we kill them? Did they die out from some other cause? Or did we "eliminate" them through interbreeding? Were Neanderthals or Denisovans the "sons of God" of Genesis 6:1? And if we did interbreed, was the "fruit" a viable person who could reproduce, or a "mule"? :?:

I assume some of us here besides me have read The Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean M. Auel., which explores in fiction these very questions...
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Petros » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:16 am

I suppose the standard assumption once [I do not want to pretend to know what the current one is - the one person who could and would tell me I am regrettably out of touch with] would have been Sapiens out Darwined them =- exploited better, bred better. The DNA traces at least say we did not instantly smash everone who was Beatle-browed .

The pure Darwinian fittest is clearly too simplistic. Look at remnant Sapiens subgroups, Bushman, Pygmies, Gonds, Ainu - the list goes on, there is no clear biological factor stopping a Nicobarese from becoming the next Wolf of Wall Street.

We are reasonably sure: Neanderthalensis existed, Sapiens existed, in overlapping environments. In the fulness of time, Neanderthalensis went the way of the aurochs [also traceable in bovine DNA] and Sapiens [so called because we get to name ourselves and can be as hubristic as we choose] is so far still plentiful.

We had Auel in the house, but for whatever reason - likely timing of her entry versus my departure - I never got more than a few chapters in+ - but there is a good bit of sci fi exploring it.

As for the Anakim / Nephilim / etc - One of my former students is planning a study of the widespread ogre in folklore, the Cyclops being a good example - portrayed as big, humanoid but different, often barbaric and dangerous bogeymen. What you would expect if there were a folk memory of an alien non-sapiens race. It is not impossible that Polyphemus and Goliath are distant cousins; but I am not about to speculate on the possible time depth for folk memories, nor estimte odds on inheritance versus parallel invention.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Maverick » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:13 pm

[quote="Petros"]As for the Anakim / Nephilim / etc - One of my former students is planning a study of the widespread ogre in folklore, the Cyclops being a good example - portrayed as big, humanoid but different, often barbaric and dangerous bogeymen. What you would expect if there were a folk memory of an alien non-sapiens race. It is not impossible that Polyphemus and Goliath are distant cousins; but I am not about to speculate on the possible time depth for folk memories, nor estimte odds on inheritance versus parallel invention.[/quote]

I've wondered similar things. Shows like "Ancient Aliens" on the History Channel make it seem like all the great wonders of the world and whatnot are the product of alien interaction and intervention.

There is a man named L.A. Marzulli who has done research into some of these things, particularly in Paracas, Peru. He studied the elongated skulls believed to be products of cradle headboarding (wrapping a baby's head tightly with cloth so the skull will grow elongated). Some were human with standard skull structure--others were missing the parietal plate across the skill, something that is not human. I believe his theory is that the Peruvian people saw these aliens/Nephilim with elongated skulls and tried to become more like them by elongating the heads of their babies. Look him up on YouTube; there's a video of him showing the different skulls.

Another thing that's interesting in Peru are the walls made with irregularly-shaped stones, packed so precisely together that there is not even a hair's breadth of space between them. I have a friend who went to Cusco, Peru this summer and actually got to see these walls up close The interesting thing about some of them is that they are built so precisely at the base and then primitively on top, with much smaller stones and much more imprecise workmanship, as if someone tried in vain to finish the wall. BBCode isn't letting me post photos, so do a Google search for "Cusco wall" and see what I'm talking about.

I don't know much about Neanderthals and all that, but I do believe in Genesis 6:4: "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown." (ESV) They were not just present before the Flood, but "also afterward."

Marzulli's theory (last I checked) was that when Joshua and the Israelites were routing the other nations from the Promised Land, that many of these nations were actually Nephilim/Anakim. He postulates that perhaps some of these people groups built boats and sailed across the Atlantic to the Americas in order to escape from the Israelites. It's a bit out there, but something to consider.

Apologies if I hijacked this strip. I find this all very interesting. For the record, I don't believe in evolution, but I'm not sure I believe in a 6000-year-old Earth either.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:14 pm

jochanaan wrote:Interesting thoughts, Petros. Did we kill them? Did they die out from some other cause? Or did we "eliminate" them through interbreeding? Were Neanderthals or Denisovans the "sons of God" of Genesis 6:1?

Good question. Did they have souls that could be saved or were they a created being prior to Adam?

jochanaan wrote:And if we did interbreed, was the "fruit" a viable person who could reproduce, or a "mule"? :?:


Yes, the evidence is clear that all the humans who are not African have some Neanderthal DNA, 20% on average.
So we could reproduce with them, but there appear to be some fertility issues with male offspring of Neanderthal x Homo sapiens mating.

Neanderthal DNA has been fully sequenced, so we know what to look for.
However, we were almost at the point of speciation, that is, so different genetically that hybrids had a high frequency of genetic disorders.
Neanderthals would probably NOT have had these disorders, it is a function of poor compatibility between sapiens and neanderthal genes on the X chromosome.
Some hereditary diseases are attributed to the mating of these two sub-species.
But Neanderthal had genes that gave their descendants a more active immune system, greater resistance to certain diseases.
These things are linked. Autoimmune disorders can also protect against pathogens.
Neanderthals may have given non-Africans straight hair and other traits that better adapt them to chilly rainy climates.
While there is evidence that Homo sapiens is more intelligent than Neanderthal, sapiens intelligence seems to have dominated, either through genetic dominance or selective advantage.
http://www.ibtimes.com/neanderthal-gene ... ks-1550892
http://blog.oup.com/2015/04/neanderthal ... selection/
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:21 pm

Maverick wrote:Apologies if I hijacked this strip. I find this all very interesting. For the record, I don't believe in evolution, but I'm not sure I believe in a 6000-year-old Earth either.


The Bible is clear that God is Creator. We are not here by chance.
But we can keep an open mind about how he brought about creation and how long he took to do it.
Denisovans and Neanderthal may be the last remnant of God's creation before Adam.
There are other races such as Homo habilis and Homo erectus that left a trace in human DNA as well.
The cranial capacity of these species is quite low, but were they human or prehuman?

Are they fallen races of men whose genes are so modified from Adam's race that they could barely mate with our kind?
Did the Bible giants spring from these races?
Did fallen angels engineer these creatures from the Adamic race?

I have no quick and easy answer. I just believe the Bible as best as I can understand it.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby jochanaan » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:27 pm

Petros wrote:The DNA traces at least say we did not instantly smash everone who was Beatle-browed...
:dizzy: :duh: :butbut: :biggrin:
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Petros » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:54 pm

Yeah, well, I put him in for you, jochanaan. George was always Helen's favorite.

No hijacking by my standards - I throw up a hydra of interlocking questions, there will be some ramble, and so far all is by me on track.

Otherwise - yes, we have seen the longskulls. Connecting data to conclusion gets tricky. I had NOT known, Maverick, about the Cuzco walls. VERY interesting. Please compare Cuzco



with a Cyclopean wall [said to have been made by the Cyclops, the local version of my friend's widespread ogres] as seen ant touched and photographed - not this shot - by me in Greece


Looks very similar technology. I had not known, not as up on Andean or M<esoamerican archaeology.

Ramblinman, hybrid vigor is well documented and as for the autoimmune disorders, compare sickle cell with its alleged antimalarial function back home.

Some of the questions will not be answered till we really understand what the soul is. Which I don't.
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Re: As well here as any

Postby Maverick » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Petros, I had not known about the Cyclopean walls, so thank you for sharing and giving me something else to read about in my free time. Some of the walls in Google Images results look strikingly similar to the Cuzco walls, featuring the same precise and interlocked appearance, while others look much less precise.

Ramblinman, I like to think of myself of an open-minded individual, but when I read in Genesis 2:7 that God formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, I take it for what it's worth. Of course, I'm no Hebrew scholar, and I'm sure there is a much deeper meaning in the text. I will add that to my ever-growing list of things to study.

I have a few objections to evolution, one of the main ones being the lack of fossils for the "intermediate" species. If Species A is supposed to evolve into Species B with significant differences, we should theoretically see many variations between A and B. To my knowledge, there aren't that many "transitional" fossils to be found for any species. The Darwinists' counter to this is, of course, that evolution occurs/occurred much faster than previously predicted, but that means that there are long periods of evolutionary stagnation in species before evolution continues. I suppose "guided evolution," evolution with God controlling it, could account for this, but I'm still not convinced.
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