What is your denominational background?

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Postby natman » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:15 pm

jochanaan wrote:
Strandloper wrote:...I do not see the need at this stage to devise a name for the future reunited Church...

Nor do I. Our Lord will probably call us merely "Beloved" or some such. :D


I guess what I am trying to say is that the "church" or God's "beloved" have been here from the start and will continue until He returns, at which point they (we) will take dominion over the Earth alongside Jesus for the rest of eternity, as was the plan at the beginning of time.


1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Jesus as a Jew, denominations

Postby onrdoc » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:48 pm

Strandloper wrote:exactly right: Jesus was a Jew.
But I am minded of the story told of an Irish Catholic priest who said:
“It is true, the Lord was born a Jew. But praise the Lord, he converted.” (In the old priest’s eyes, the Lord had become a Roman Catholic – Vatican I style.)
The truth is: He was born a Jew. He lived as a Jew. He preached the Good News to the Jews first. He died a Jew – and everyone could see that, because He was crucified naked, and all could see that He was circumcised.
But He also gave the commandment that the Good News should be preached “in Jerusalem, in Judæa and Samaria, and in all the world”.
That could surely not mean “to Jews only”.


No argument at all, Strandloper - I was just trying to yank a chain - thus the :wink: .

So today we are required to strive for unity, because the Church is so divided.
Congregations and groupings of congregations that claim not to belong to a denomination have in fact made a denomination of their own.
We need to bring the lost sheep together, not divide the flock still further.


Exactly true. I personally favour having denominations, for reasons of doctrinal emphasis and worship style preference - perhaps just not as many. Were people not given options, they'd probably create them anyway, given our sinful nature. And "non-denominational" is itself a denomination, though perhaps not organized as such.

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Supercessionism

Postby onrdoc » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:54 pm

natman wrote: However, unless I am totally reading scripture incorrectly, all Christians are Jews, either genetically or by adoption, as in "grafting into the root" spoken of in Romans 11.
<snip>
If there is to be a single denomination, I would think it would be called something like "The True Jews" , "The Remnant", "God's Chosen" or simply "Believers". They have been around since Able, or even possibly Adam.


The issue at hand here is called "supercessionism". That is, under the covenant, did the church supercede Israel, or merely cozy up alongside it? (That's an oversimplification of a complex argument.) Those who subscribe to a dispensationalist view tend to see the Jews still as the chosen people; others see the church as God's chosen people because of the necessity to be in Christ. I'm not handy to a good theological dictionary right now, but others may be able to expand on this.

In terms of denominational name, there is a stripe of Christians in Canada called the United Church of Canada; some of them like to joke that the Bible says, "We'll all be United in the air!" Some say that many are called, but few are chosen; up here, we sometimes say that many are cold, but few are frozen!

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Postby natman » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:42 pm

I don't see the church as "superceding" the Jews (supercession), or even coming along side the Jews (dispensationalism), but as a contiuation of the Jews. The only difference occurs at the advent of Christ, in Whom the Law and the ordinances (types and shadows) that pointed to his coming are fullfilled. We do things a bit differently since Christ came, but we are the same people.
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Postby onrdoc » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:02 pm

natman wrote:I don't see the church as "superceding" the Jews (supercession), or even coming along side the Jews (dispensationalism), but as a contiuation of the Jews. The only difference occurs at the advent of Christ, in Whom the Law and the ordinances (types and shadows) that pointed to his coming are fullfilled. We do things a bit differently since Christ came, but we are the same people.


So ultimately, Nathan, the question at hand is: are the Jews still God's chosen people - in other words, can they be saved apart from faith in Christ?

My answer is "no" - which is why I subscribe to supercessionism.

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Postby natman » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:48 am

onrdoc wrote:So ultimately, Nathan, the question at hand is: are the Jews still God's chosen people - in other words, can they be saved apart from faith in Christ?

My answer is "no" - which is why I subscribe to supercessionism.


No one has ever been able to be saved apart from faith, not even the Jews. Those Jews, and gentiles, such as Rahab and Ruth from the OT and ourselves that had or have faith that God (YHWH) would send or has sent a savior and recognized their Messiah when He was born were and are God's Chosen people. Those that had faith knew without a doubt that a Messiah was coming, watched for Him and recognized Him when He was among us. Consider Simeon for example...

Luke 2:25-32
'Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace.
For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." '


The problem I see with "supercession" is that it presupposes that something one has been replaced by another. What I am saying is that there has ALWAYS only been ONE people which are God's Chosen people, which are those people that have faith in the one true God, that either looked forward to the coming of His Messiah or look back at the Messiah that has come, and who all look forward to the resurrection of the body and eternity in the presence of Almighty God in His Kingdom. The line is continuous, from Adam and on until the resurrection.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby arom » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:00 am

I was raised Lutheran, accepted Christ overseas, and my theology was initially Southern Baptist.

I am a dispensationalist and agree with Charles Ryrie, Norman Geisler, and the rest of those crazy dispensationalists. I teach part-time at a non-denominatinal dispensational Bible College and strongly believe in the literal Word of God.

Nathan is right, God does not lie. When He said that the Jews were His chosen people, they were and are His chosen people. We are also assured the Jesus Christ died for the entire World. The church and the nation of Israel are two different things. Yet, Jew or Gentile, all have the opportunity to be saved.

1 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ the righteous One. 2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world (1 John 2:1=2 HCSB).

16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God (John 3:16-18 HCSB).


He died for everyone, but through our free will, mankind can only appropriate the free gift of Jesus Christ through faith in Him and Him alone. There are saved Jews (Messianic Jews) that belief in Christ. And there are unsaved Jews that do not believe in Christ.

There is nothing man can do to accomplish Salvation. That comes from God's Free Grace through Jesus Christ our Lord. So although the Jews are God's chosen people only their free will choice to accept God's Grace will save them or anyone else.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-- 9 not from works, so that no one can boast (Eph. 2:8-9 HCSB)

9 if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 With the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation... 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:9-10;13 HCSB).
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Postby natman » Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:55 pm

arom wrote:Nathan is right, God does not lie. When He said that the Jews were His chosen people, they were and are His chosen people.


I don't think I ever said that God said the Jews were His chosen people (His exclusive chosen people). Certainly God used the descendents of Abraham and the Hebrew/Jewish nation to teach us about Himself and to bring us our much needed Messiah. However, God's chosen people are not limited to those of a particular bloodline, but are limited to those with a particular relationship to Himself.

In fact, in Romans 9 and Gal 3, Paul makes it absolutely clear that who God's chosen people are and who they are not.

Rom 9:6-8
"It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."

Gal 3:16
"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ."

Gal 3:26-29
"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Paul also refers to Christian as "God's chosen people"...

Col 3:11-12 (Paul, speaking to the Colosian church...)
"Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved..."


And Peter refers to Christians as God's chosen people...
1 Pet 2:9
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God,..."
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby bn2bnude » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:32 am

And then there is Romans 11:17

But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. New Living Translation
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Postby arom » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:03 am

Sorry Nathan,

I did not mean to take you post out of context. My mistake.

I am simply trying to point out what I understand from Scripture - the end result is the same.

The Church consists of God's Chosen, the Bride of Christ. However, one cannot ignore the promises made by God specifically to the Nation of Israel. The Jews are also God's chosen people, but that does not automatically grant them passage to heaven. Not all Israelites in the Old Testament went to heaven, and today only those Israelites that accept Jesus Christ will go to heaven.

And that is the final answer -- the way to God is through Jesus Christ! Discussions like this help clarify our theological positions and are ok, but it is the Gospel message that really counts. Truly believe in Jesus Christ, the perfect God/man who died for our sins and raised Himself back to life three days later in defeat of death, and you are saved. It is not works that save us, it is our Savior working through us that produces good works.

God Bless.
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Postby dby » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:33 am

bn2bnude wrote:And then there is Romans 11:17

But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. New Living Translation

And your paraphrase brings up an interesting point. Notice the inserted words "some of the people of Israel" (which don't appear here in any of the Greek manuscripts). The majority of Christianity has always interpreted the broken off branches to be the people of Judah, broken off because of disbelief in Messiah.

But by inserting the concept of "Israel", this paraphrase takes the discussion in a whole new direction. Recall that the Northern Kingdom of "Israel" split from the Southern Kingdom of "Judah". They went into unbelief, even repeating the sin of the golden calf from Mount Sinai, but this time with 2 golden calves (see 1 Kings 12:28 ). Because of the sin of idolatry, which was adultery against her Husband, God divorced Israel while remaining married to Judah. In Jeremiah 3 there is a long discussion of the fact that the Torah prohibits a husband from taking back a divorced wife who has gone after another man.

So truly, the Northern Kingdom of Israel could be described as being broken off branches as your paraphrase implies. The Northern Kingdom of Israel was taken out of the Land by Assyria to the north and was dispersed. This was prior to the Southern Kingdom of Israel being taken out of the Land by Babylon to the east and ultimately being returned.

But the Northern Kingdom of Israel was never returned. However, the Christian church - wanting to prove that "Jesus fulfilled every prophecy - there is nothing left to accomplish" - has generally taught that the Northern Kingdom of Israel was returned to the Land along with Southern Kingdom Judah in the time of the Prophet Ezra.

This, of course, is exactly the opposite of what history teaches. The Talmud in tractate Sanhedrin 110b records the controversy between Rabbi Akiva (died 135 CE) who claimed that the Northern Kingdom of Israel would NEVER return and his teacher Rabbi Eliezar who said that most certainly the Northern Kingdom of Israel would eventually be returned. In fact the position of Orthodox Judaism to this day is that this is one of the End Times events. That there will be a battle called Gog U'MaGog (Gog and Magog) and after that is completed the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and the descendants of the Northern Kingdom of Israel would be returned to the Land of Israel.

So, is Paul in Romans 11 actually referring to "Israel" as being the broken off branches? Or is he referring to "Judah" (the Jewish people) as being the broken off branches? Christians have generally interpreted the passage as referring to Jews, but perhaps this isn't the case.
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Postby jochanaan » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:45 am

dby wrote:...So, is Paul in Romans 11 actually referring to "Israel" as being the broken off branches? Or is he referring to "Judah" (the Jewish people) as being the broken off branches? Christians have generally interpreted the passage as referring to Jews, but perhaps this isn't the case.

II Chronicles 11:13,14,16 may shed some light on these matters: "And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him [King Rehoboam of Judah] out of all their coasts...for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD...And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers." So apparently from the very beginning of the divided kingdom, there were people of all the twelve tribes in Judah.
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Postby natman » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:44 am

The word or name "Israel" is used four different ways in scripture.

1. "Israel" is the new name God gave to Jacob. Genesis 32:28 "Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob ("Deceiver), but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

2. "Israel", the natural descendants of Jacob.

3. "Israel", the nation or northern kingdom.

4. "Israel", God's remnant chosen people, mentioned over and over again by the OT prophets. This remnant included not only those that were born of the bloodline of Jacob, but also those that were grafted in, including the descendants of Ruth, Rahab and all of those that were brought into relationship with the God of Israel by Queen Ester. (Ester 8:17 "In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.")

We must always look at the context in which it is used to determine it's particular meaning. In Romans 9 & 11 and Gal 3, Paul begins by referring to descendants of Abraham. So I would say there that the name "Israel" is initially referring to the natural descendants of Jacob. However, he goes on to make a distinction between the descendants of Abraham and "Israel" God's chosen people. When Paul says "all Isael will be saved", he has changed his focus to God's chosen people.

Arom,

This (Dispensationalism) is an area I am extremely interested in right now because of events going on in my life, so I would love to expamd this conversation.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Postby arom » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:20 pm

You are correct Natman.

The key in understanding the Progressive Revelation of God to mankind in Scripture is understanding the "Nation of Israel" and the "Church/Bride of Christ" are two different things. God is not finished with Israel. Neither is he finished with the Church.

Start a new thread with a discussion on Dispensationalism or pm me. I can try to answer as much as I can, and if I cannot I will take it to friends I now that are much smarter than I am. I finished my degree at a Calvinist Seminary, but my position is strongly dspensatinalist.

Go Bless.
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Postby Josh » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:11 am

Hey there sure are a lot of Baptist nudists including pastors! :lol:
Even a good friend of mine who grew up Fundamentalist Independent Baptist and goes to nudist resorts every year a few times and now attends an SBC. I haven't run into any Pentecostals or Charismatics.
I was raised in the United Methodist Church and got saved in the Jesus Movement of the 70s and was an honest to goodness "Jesus Freak". We have been involved in the Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal churches. I think those are some of the churches least open to nudism. Lately, we have been involved in a non-denominational church, but you would probably classify it as a Renewal church or a Full Gospel church.
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