Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

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Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby LivingFree » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:53 pm

I know something about Judaism, but not nearly enough.

I know that Judaism gave birth to Christianity. (It also gave birth to Islam.)

I know that today there are several branches of Judaism: Hasidic, Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal.

I also know there is a group called Messianic Jews, and another called Jews for Jesus. I have met a few Messianic Jews.

I could probably fill a few pages with what I think I know, but it would probably be only half right. Can anyone tell me if what I've written here is right so far?
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby jochanaan » Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:40 am

LivingFree wrote:...Can anyone tell me if what I've written here is right so far?

Well, Judaism's "liberal" branch is actually called Reform Judaism. :) Otherwise, this mostly squares with what I know. Jews for Jesus is a branch of Messianic Judaism, which differs little from orthodox Judaism except that they accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Perhaps dby could tell us more...
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby natman » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:27 am

LivingFree wrote:I know that Judaism gave birth to Christianity. (It also gave birth to Islam.)


Although Judaism and Islam have a common root, in Abraham, I do not believe that Judaism "gave birth" to Islam.

Islam holds to SOME of the teachings of the Bible, and even see Jesus as a great prophet and teacher, but it's followers are many generations removed from Ishmael, first son of Abraham, and have a completely different concept of who God is.

I suppose that, by your logic, it could also be said that ALL world religions came out of Judaism because we could go back a few more generations and see that all men were decended from Adam. It just becomes a matter of which branch we follow. Each generation, beginning with Cain and Seth, has had those that follow the Lord (the remnant) and those that wonder away. Of those that follow the Lord, most are natural decendants, but may have been grafted in, particularly after the advent of Christ. Most of those that wondered away still recognized the presence of some transcendant being, but lost the "intimate relationship" God has provided to His remanant people.
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Postby jochanaan » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:55 am

Just because a religion or sect "came out" of Judaism or Christianity doesn't make it true. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." --I John 2:19
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Postby LivingFree » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:07 pm

Actually, "Judaism" did not spring forth until after the Babylonian Captivity. Before that, the Bible talks about the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom. The southern kingdom contained the tribes of Benjamin, Judah, and Simeon, although Simeon seems to get lost in the shuffle and Benjamin is eventually submerged into Judah. When the captives returned from Babylon they were mainly Judahites, and eventually can to be called Jews. Ezra instituted the regular reading of Torah, and the development of synagogues composed of at least ten households came next. Rabbinical schools developed from them.

Christianity of course emerged from Judaism, but as you point out above, Nathan, though Islam has an Abrahamic source, it is actually a melding of Jewish and Christian concepts by the Prophet Mohammed, gained in his camel caravan travels from Mecca, his home town, to the merchant cities of Palestine, Syria and beyond. The religious recitations contained in the Kur'an were certainly a moral improvement over the tribal religions of the Arab peoples.

It is really a stretch to believe that anything descending from Adam and Eve can be called Judaic in the classical sense. Certainly Adam and Eve taught their descendents about Creator God and God's moral precepts as they understood them. It is also clear that non-Hebrew peoples, such as Job, Melchizedek, and Balaam worshipped the one true Creator God, but as we read the story of faith in Genesis - Ezra, it is clear that there is lots of development which might be called Abrahamic first, Israelite next, but Jewish only later. One must be careful what label is given to faith prior to Abraham.

But this doesn't actually address the question of this strip -- the correlation between the branches of Judaism and Christianity.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby dby » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:28 am

LivingFree wrote: I know something about Judaism, but not nearly enough.

I know that Judaism gave birth to Christianity. (It also gave birth to Islam.)


Though, of course, the word "Judaism" is not found in the Bible and was not used to describe the religion until a bit later.

Muhammed actually had both a Christian wife and a Jewish wife, but lived in a polytheistic society. He picked Allah, the moon god, out of the entire pantheon and declared that god to be the only true god. So to say that either religion "gave birth to Islam" is inaccurate. Islam has very little in common with either religion.

I know that today there are several branches of Judaism: Hasidic, Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal.


All Chassidic are Orthodox, but not all Orthodox are Chassidic. The Chassidic movement started with the Baal Shem Tov and was not well accepted by the rest of Judaism at the time. Chassidic Judaism was in some ways similar to Charismatic Christianity putting a bit more emphasis into "the move of the Spirit". The Baal Shem Tov traveled through Eastern Europe and each of the major towns developed its own expression of Chassidism. So today, the largest Chassidic group is Chabad Lubavitch who sprouted from Lubavitch (city of brotherly love) Russia, the second largest is Breslov from Brastlav, Ukraine, and there are about another dozen main Chassidic groups. There were many much smaller Chassidic groups that were mostly wiped out during the Holocaust.

The somewhat more liberal Orthodox call themselves "Traditional Judaism". Many of them are egalitarian, no longer requiring that the women sit in a seperate section in the synagogue.

Developing in the mid-1800's Conservative Judaism is actually "moderate" in nature. They don't strongly hold to all the traditional rules of Judaism, but they don't reject them all either.

Reform Judaism also developed in the 1800's, but is far more liberal, rejecting any need to keep any of the Torah other than a very general "do good to others" belief. Reform Judaism is the only group that calls their synagogue "Temples". This stems from their belief that the Temple in Jerusalem will never be rebuilt. Reform Judaism currently is the largest Judaism in terms of followers.

Reconstructionist Judaism is the 4th largest group, they tend to be deists in nature. They tend to generally reject the possibility of the supernatural, certainly no revelation to man. The Scriptures are just "folkways" - nice traditions that kept Jews together over the centuries, but nothing to be taken too seriously.

Jewish Renewal is the newest Jewish movement. They are just the opposite of the Reconstructionists. They fully embrace the supernatural, but do so without any discrimination. Trancendental Meditation, Buddhism, Sufism, Native American - it doesn't matter - they mix it all together.

There is another division called the Frankists or Sabbataens. I would view them as being the Jewish equivalent of Satanists. But fortunately there are not many of them. They sprang up as followers of Shabbtai Tzvi, practiced sex orgies and all manner of perversity. Obviously they are regarded as being heretics by the rest of Judaism.

Most Jews of today are secular and don't practice Judaism at all.

I also know there is a group called Messianic Jews, and another called Jews for Jesus. I have met a few Messianic Jews.


Jews for Jesus was started by Denver native Moshe Rosen. They moved to San Francisco in the Haight Ashbury district. They were something of the Jewish arm of the "Jesus People" movement at the time. They are somewhat classified in the category of Messianic Judaism, which is probably inaccurate as they tend to generally disagree with the Messianic Movement. They have even published a book entitled "Messianic Judaism is not Christian".

While the religion of John the Baptist and the Disciples was probably very much like Messianic Judaism, the modern movement probably doesn't date back to much earlier than the 1840's and men like Alfred Edersheim and David Baron. The modern Messianic Movement started as the Hebrew Christian Alliance. The HCA was a group of Jewish Christians who found that they were largely unwelcome by the Gentile Christian Churches, so they formed their own group. In the early years few of them had any interest in Judaism as such. I've got one of their early tracts and it brags on how the young Jewish woman comes to Christ and then shocks her family by serving levened bread and pork during Passover.

That sort of thing in not the norm for most of Messianic Judaism today. While only a small part of the Messianic Movement is anywhere close to Orthodoxy in practice, most of them will at least avoid eating pork, shellfish and the like and will make some attempt at following the rules for Passover. The Messianic Movement has a fairly broad spectrum on just about every issue. A few are pretty Orthodox - and very structured in their worship, others are more like Charismatic Christianity.

There are many sources of division in the Messianic Movement. Some of the Messianic Congregations feel that Gentiles have no place in the Messianic Movement, but this is by far the minority view. The majority of congregations that would call themselves Messianic have a sizable Gentile membership. Some Messianics do not speak the Divine 4 Letter Name of God, those who do attempt to pronounce The Name are divided between those who use 2 sylables and 3 (who are further divided by pronounciation.) There are other divisions based on exactly how the calendar is to be calculated. Another division deals with the question of the split of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah. Some of the Messianic groups believe the reunification already occured, others believe it is a future occurance or that the reunification is occuring right now with the influx of Gentiles into the Messianic Movement. I am reasonably conversant with all of these various groups, so feel free to ask with any questions.

I could probably fill a few pages with what I think I know, but it would probably be only half right. Can anyone tell me if what I've written here is right so far?
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby LivingFree » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:41 am

dby wrote:Muhammed actually had both a Christian wife and a Jewish wife, but lived in a polytheistic society. He picked Allah, the moon god, out of the entire pantheon and declared that god to be the only true god. So to say that either religion "gave birth to Islam" is inaccurate. Islam has very little in common with either religion.


Would you kindly cite your sources for this information. It's a lot different than my information.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby dby » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:49 am

LivingFree wrote:
dby wrote:Muhammed actually had both a Christian wife and a Jewish wife, but lived in a polytheistic society. He picked Allah, the moon god, out of the entire pantheon and declared that god to be the only true god. So to say that either religion "gave birth to Islam" is inaccurate. Islam has very little in common with either religion.


Would you kindly cite your sources for this information. It's a lot different than my information.


I think I read it about 15 years ago in this book:
http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/islam.html
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Postby LivingFree » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:52 am

According to the Preface in my copy of the Qur'an, which contains a brief history of the life of Muhammad, he married the widow of his employer, who was a merchant from Mecca, trading with other merchants at least as far north as Damascus. After Kadijah's husband died, Muhammad was put in charge of the business because in that culture a woman could not effectively run a business. The marriage was proposed to give Muhammad and the business legal standing in the tribe. It was some years after that marriage that Muhammad received his revelations from God, and recited them to devotees of his. They, in turn, transcribed them shortly after his death.

In an article on Muhammad in Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad we read the following regarding Muhammad's marital status.
Muhammad became a merchant. He "was involved in trade between the Indian ocean and the Mediterranean Sea." [22] He gained a reputation for reliability and honesty that attracted a proposal from Khadijah, a forty-year-old widow in 595.[22] Muhammad consented to the marriage, which by all accounts was a happy one.
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Postby natman » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:20 pm

LF,

This brief statement does not automatically preclude that what DBY has said is incorrect.

According to the following website, (http://www.muslimhope.com/WhyDidMohamme ... yWives.htm),
Mohammad had MANY wives, listed as...

--- wives ---
1. Khadija/Khadijah bint Khuwailid/Khywaylid - died first
2. Sawda/Sauda bint Zam’a
3. 'Aisha/Aesha/’A’ishah - 8 to 9 yrs old, 2nd wife
4. Omm/’Umm Salama/Salamah
5. Hafsa/Hafsah
6. Zaynab/Zainab of Jahsh
7. Jowayriya/Juwairiyya bint Harith
8. Omm Habiba
9. Safiya/Safiyya bint Huyai/Huyayy bint Akhtab
10. Maymuna/Maimuna of Hareth
11. Fatima/Fatema/Fatimah
12. Hend/Hind
13. Asma of Saba
14. Zaynab of Khozayma
15. Habla?
16. Asma of Noman / bint al-Nu’man

--- slaves / concubines ---
17. Mary the Coptic Christian
18. Rayhana/Raihana/Rayhanah bint Zayd/Zaid

--- uncertain relationship -
19. Omm Sharik
20. Maymuna/Maimuna (slave girl?)
21. Zaynab/Zainab the third?
22. Khawla / Khawlah
SON-cerely,
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Postby Crafty Mom » Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:39 pm

Hate to say this folks, but Mohamud's life & how he came to power, etc. is starting to remind me of LDS' Joseph Smith.

Nobody in the LDS church to this day can agree on his life & rise to fame/power in the church.

:wink:
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Postby jochanaan » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:05 pm

Oh, don't worry about saying that, CM. I suspect many of us think that privately. Of course, many Muslims and Mormons themselves know little about their movements' origins, or the character of their First Prophets. Very different from Christianity or Judaism, whose histories record our founders' lives with all the sins and warts as well as their virtues.
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Postby natman » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:51 pm

jochanaan wrote:Of course, many Muslims and Mormons themselves know little about their movements' origins, or the character of their First Prophets.


And many do. They just do not want to be confused with the facts.
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Postby jochanaan » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:54 pm

How true, Natman. :roll:
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Postby Strandloper » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:08 pm

Crafty Mom wrote: “Hate to say this folks, but Mohamud's life & how he came to power, etc. is starting to remind me of LDS' Joseph Smith. Nobody in the LDS church to this day can agree on his life & rise to fame/power in the church.”

Too true, CM. And there are a lot more similarities than meet the eye.
Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon. Muhammad said the words that were later written down as the Qur’an.
Both declared that they had been given authority by God to proclaim a new dispensation, but neither had a very clear understanding of the tradition he was supposed to be interpreting.

LF wrote: “. . . Muhammad received his revelations from God, and recited them to devotees of his. They, in turn, transcribed them shortly after his death.”
There was actually no plan to transcribe the revelations of Muhammad, and from my understanding it was considerably longer than a short while after his death that they were written down either.
The decision to commit them to writing was taken because of a battle fought between two factions, each supporting a different claimant to be the successor (Caliph) to Muhammad.
Because several of the men who had memorised parts of Muhammad’s revelation had been killed (on both sides), it was felt that steps should be taken to preserve these words, in case further witnesses should be killed.

It seems that Muhammad seized on the moon-deity because he and his two daughters were the ones worshipped at the Ka’abah. The deity’s name is a contraction of al illah (the god).
When, following the Hijrah (the flight of Muhammad and his followers to Medina), they eventually returned and captured Mecca, the first thing they did was enter the Ka’abah and destroy the pagan images inside it that had been worshipped.
An interesting exception made was that an image of Mary with the infant Jesus was not destroyed. My guess is that it was later destroyed by an over-zealous local leader.

Regarding Muhammad’s connections with Christianity and Judaism, I doubt that he took much about either from his wives. (Incidentally, he remained monogamous until after the death of Khadijah. Then he announced that God had told him he should marry several wives.)
In his travels, and at Mecca itself, he had contact with a number of Christians and Jews. But the Christians he paid the most attention to were Gnostics, and it was from them that he picked up the idea that Jesus did not die on the cross, but that a substitute died in His place.
The Jews he knew also were heretics, and whereas he originally instructed his followers to pray facing Jerusalem, he had a dispute with a group of Jews and thereafter told his followers to pray facing Mecca instead.
The Qur’an does incorporate older traditions that may have been passed down in Arab communities, but it can by no means be seen as being reliable in the way that the Hebrew Scriptures are.
There is a common misconception that all the Arabs of Arabia are descendants of Ishmael. The tribes of that region are in fact divided into two groups: those that are descended from Ishmael, and those that claim to have lived in the region since long before Abraham’s time.
Shalom,
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