On Abortion

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On Abortion

Postby naturaldon » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:32 pm

...Starting this strip to widen discussion from a previous (thread).

On abortion: Yes, me calling it murder does sound over-the-top but there is no other way to declare it. The intentional taking of innocent human life is murder. Personally, I'm not going to sugarcoat it for the sake of decorum. Calling it what it is does everything to advance communication of the subject in that there should be no compromise by courageous, Godly men, whether or not it is abortion at the moment of conception or euthanasia at the end of natural life. Ending life without any regard for God's gift of it is murder. I say this without reserve and without apology.

For now, and in keeping with the spirit of this new topic to base it on Scripture, I offer the following personal apologetic (and which is copyrighted, but I give myself permission to reprint in full and not edited :wink: ):


II Kings 8:12-13; 15:16

This Gross Thing


And Hazael said, “Why is my lord weeping?’ He answered, “Because I know the evil that you will do to the children of Israel: Their strongholds you will set on fire, and their young men you will kill with the sword; and you will dash their children, and rip open their women with child.” So Hazael said, “But what is your servant – a dog, that he should do this gross thing?” And Elisha answered, “The Lord has shown me that you will become king over Syria.”

Then from Tirzah, Menahem attacked Tiphsah, all who were there, and its territory. Because they did not surrender, therefore he attacked it. All the women there who were with child he ripped open.

There are several reasons we have hunting and fishing seasons but the one that seems to stand out the most is providing game animals the time they need to procreate. In most cases, we don’t hunt animals out of season because they’re likely giving birth, caring for babies or eggs, or teaching their young how to survive. More lenient seasons are provided for those animals that need to be controlled because they are destructive, inconvenient, or exceeding the carrying capacity of the land.

Theodore Roosevelt recognized this principle. In what he called “the strenuous life,” that is, living from what the wilderness provided, he practiced not killing fawns and female game animals at certain times of the year. We see glimpses of his developing conservationist philosophy from his comments like, “we…do not kill does until a month later – and then only when short of meat;” and, “there was no necessity to harm the (doe and fawn);” and, “the shes and young of any game should only be killed when there is a real necessity.” Most notably he stated, “…I hate to shoot a cow (elk) even when forced by necessity. Maternity must always appeal to anyone.” In his context, Roosevelt understood in all ways what was necessary for the preservation of the species, especially the human species.

The killing of an animal is not murder, nor is the killing of its unborn baby. They’re just animals. But by and large, hunting and fishing seasons help us protect or control the reproductive cycles of practically all game animals. That calls for ethical and humane killing. We should remember that we have a Biblical mandate for this type of animal husbandry. Otherwise, we don’t eat (Genesis 1:28-29; 9:2-3).

It’s an ugly business killing an animal that is carrying an unborn little one in the womb. I’ve seen the remains of road killed victims in this condition. This gross thing is, well, it’s gross. It’s bad enough looking upon a mangled carcass… oozing guts, protruding bones, splattered brains, bulging eyeballs, torn flesh, seeping mammary glands. But the most unpleasant sight is that of a little baby animal aborted as a result of an accident, ripped or ruptured from the womb by fender or bumper, some still flinching, still clinging to life as they lay alongside mama. What did I tell you? It’s gross.

A good hunter chooses not to kill an animal he knows might be pregnant. It’s not right and as I inferred already, laws protect the unborn baby or the unlain egg. Ethical hunters have demanded and fought for these laws long before any conservation movement. You just don’t kill a baby animal inside or outside its mother’s womb. You don’t knowingly kill a mother caring for her little one, seen or unseen.

And you just don’t kill a baby boy or a baby girl who is still in a human mother’s womb. This is not a political statement. It’s a statement for life. It’s all about that which defines goodness and honor. It’s a God-given principle that drives good people to do the right thing, not the gross thing.

In my opinion, there’s no greater place in the Bible that addresses the terror of abortion than right here in II Kings. Elisha called it evil for he knew the horrors that Hazael would commit, among which would be to violently abort babies, killing their mothers in the process. Hazael couldn’t believe his ears. “Am I a dog that I would do this gross thing?” he questioned. Yes, he was, for when he became king of Syria, he did this gross thing in the land – ordering and allowing pregnant women to be ripped open, their babies spilt onto the dirty ground, leaving wounded mothers to die beside their children. Yes, Hazael was a dog. Realize that in the Old Testament days, dogs were not your chummy hunting pal. Calling someone a dog was comparable to calling someone a son-of-a-bitch today, the AKA notwithstanding.

And so was Menahem, king of Israel, who also carried out this gross thing a few generations later. Make no mistake, the killing of an unborn baby was, and is, a vile, evil, dastardly act. I don’t think enough adverbs can really describe it. Abortion is, in fact, doggish, for even dogs will destroy their own young.

So here we are today in our 21st century society, in our refined culture, saving animals but killing baby boys and girls. It’s not like wombs are being ripped open and mothers are left to perish. Oh, wait a minute, it is just like that, and not just by terrorists of third world nations. But by terrorists in the procedure room using sterile techniques and anesthesia. Making it pretty and politically correct. Hiding their acts behind cowardly causes and political platforms. Caring not for human life. In kinder words than I referred to above, those who support or commit abortion are fleabags. Nothing against fleas, mind you.

The evil of abortion challenges one’s character. Some courageous men speak out and act against it, many times alone. They are warriors of the faith. Some men say little and do even less because they’ve lost the manly wherewithal that’s needed to protect the life of a child and to preserve the honor of a woman. They are dogs who commit this gross thing. We would do well to heed Roosevelt’s words, “Maternity must always appeal to anyone,” whether or not one is a believer or non-believer.

I’ve said my piece peacefully yet admittedly with heavy words. I intend to obey the laws of the land with regard to wildlife conservation. I will not knowingly or unjustly kill an animal that is pregnant or caring for its young. And as you will rightly suspect, I’ll do everything in my power to make sure children all the way down to minus 9 months of age will get a chance to live and to hear about Jesus.

It is the duty of Godly men to help the little children come to Jesus and not forbid them, for such is the kingdom of God (Mark 10:14).

Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,
the fruit of the womb is a reward.
Like arrows in the hand of a warrior,
so are the children of one’s youth.
Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them;
they shall not be ashamed,
but shall speak with their enemies in the gate.

(Psalm 127:3-5)


(Scripture taken from the NKJV)
-Don
He must increase, but I must decrease. (John 3:30)
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Re: On Abortion

Postby Jim » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:29 am

A moving piece, but logically it falls short and so does not persuade those already convinced of its premise.

To assume this is not a complicated question is an error. Before it became a central political issue, evangelicals used to support a right to abortion in many cases. The underlying question is whether a human embryo or fetus is a " baby boy or a baby girl." The biblical evidence is not one-sided. The Old Testament penalty for causing a miscarriage through violence is less than the death penalty for murder, and there it is not with the child's mother's consent. But you have the unborn John the Baptist leaping for joy at the presence of the pregnant Mary.
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Re: On Abortion

Postby New_Adventurer » Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:00 am

Read this carefully.

I am Pro Choice. Make your choice prior to having sex. If you have sex you are accepting parenthood as a possible result. I made my choices and have two children; I love them both and they are both the product of the love for and with my late wife Carol. No regrets whatsoever.

Abortion is premeditated murder. If I killed my child today it would be murder, pure and simple, cut and dried, no doubt about it. Does not matter if I did it yesterday, day after they were born, the day before they were born, or eight months before they were born. Murder is still murder regardless of when it was committed.
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Re: On Abortion

Postby Petros » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:46 am

Amen to that.

With particular attention as well to the effect on the mother persuaded into it. A VERY dear friend nearly died from the psychic effect of an abortion that had me in tears and shouting at heaven. One of the worst effects - she had VERY much wanted children - and to this day has none.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: On Abortion

Postby natman » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:04 pm

New_Adventurer wrote:Read this carefully.

I am Pro Choice. Make your choice prior to having sex. If you have sex you are accepting parenthood as a possible result. I made my choices and have two children; I love them both and they are both the product of the love for and with my late wife Carol. No regrets whatsoever.

Abortion is premeditated murder. If I killed my child today it would be murder, pure and simple, cut and dried, no doubt about it. Does not matter if I did it yesterday, day after they were born, the day before they were born, or eight months before they were born. Murder is still murder regardless of when it was committed.


:like: :like: :like:

I too am "Pro-Choice" where the "choice" occurs ONLY BEFORE the decision to have sex. Then, if a pregnancy occurs, the ONLY choice becomes to allow God to determine the result, through natural birth or miscarriage. Anything other than that is "HUMAN MURDER", "HOMICIDE", of which I am a GUILTY participant, and COMPLETELY reliant on the GRACE and MERCY provided exclusively by Christ Jesus.

As I see it, the ONLY way to eliminate abortion is to teach our children the value of ALL human life, from conception to natural or accidental death and that our value comes from the One Who created us. We need to teach them that we are ALL made in the Image and Likeness of God and that our bodies are for His glory, not to be seen as mere objects for sexualization.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Re: On Abortion

Postby Petros » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:15 am

Many years ago, a woman to whom I was at the time for very wrong reasons married was discussing abortion, a relatively new issue at the time. She was rather inclined to support the practice. For her the main argument - what if tests reveal that the child [yes, she was unsophisticated enough to accept that a child unborn is a child natheless] will be physically or merntally damaged? Think Thalidomide [which I learned on the weekend is today a valued medicine - useful for sustainig the incurable, among others!]

I was not as yet a convinced Christian - merely a man trained to use my head. I replied at once - the test says it is probable - not CERTAIN. Why not wait, let it be born, then IF it is damaged euthanize it. She agreed,. And agreed that that would be very wrong.

Today, I gather, destroying the thing-that-is-not-legally-human may often be done well after it exits the womb [mustn't say "is born"[. So logically, in 1980, when my parents, and siblings, and colleagues, and wife, and community were aware of my many deficiencies, they should have ben allowed to fill out the form to have me removed.

Maybe they should have?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: On Abortion

Postby Jim » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:31 am

Murder is the deliberate taking of human life. As most of those who request and perform abortions do not consider fetal life to be human life, I don't think murder is the correct term. We can (correctly in my opinion) call abortion the unjustified taking of human life, but "murder", I believe, is the wrong term.
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Re: On Abortion

Postby CHUBACA » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 pm

Jim wrote: As most of those who request and perform abortions do not consider fetal life to be human life,


If we are allow to decide what is human and what is not, then the civil war should have never been fought. There was a time when our darker brothers and sisters were "considered" less than human. They were "considered" property and could be aborted (murdered) at the owners whim.

Wrong then
Wrong now
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Re: On Abortion

Postby Jim » Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:10 am

CHUBACA wrote:
Jim wrote: As most of those who request and perform abortions do not consider fetal life to be human life,


If we are allow to decide what is human and what is not, then the civil war should have never been fought. There was a time when our darker brothers and sisters were "considered" less than human. They were "considered" property and could be aborted (murdered) at the owners whim.

Wrong then
Wrong now

And many who support abortion are aware of the concept of dehumanizing. Africans were not considered full humans. The offensive names often give to other ethnic groups are dehumanizing. The names given to one's nation's enemies are dehumanizing. Reviewing this concept, then seeing how it so clearly applies to the language used for pre-born children, seems to me to be one of the approaches most likely to change minds. Crying "MURDER!!!" doesn't.
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