Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

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Postby LivingFree » Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:58 am

Strandloper wrote:There is a common misconception that all the Arabs of Arabia are descendants of Ishmael. The tribes of that region are in fact divided into two groups: those that are descended from Ishmael, and those that claim to have lived in the region since long before Abraham’s time.


How true! From where, in fact, did Ismael get his wife, if not from the desert (Arab) tribes?
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby Kiki » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:16 am

LivingFree wrote:I know something about Judaism, but not nearly enough.

I know that Judaism gave birth to Christianity. (It also gave birth to Islam.)

I know that today there are several branches of Judaism: Hasidic, Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal.

I also know there is a group called Messianic Jews, and another called Jews for Jesus. I have met a few Messianic Jews.

I could probably fill a few pages with what I think I know, but it would probably be only half right. Can anyone tell me if what I've written here is right so far?


I know this is an old post but it's been awhile since I've posted on a regular basis so I thought I'd respond.

As far as the Jews for Jesus, they are generally Jewish born people who have become Christians. Some may keep some of the Jewish rituals but generally become assimilated with the local church...taking on the western traditions and leaving their Jewish one's behind. They also work at getting other Jewish people to do the same. At least that has been my experience with the Jews for Jesus.

The Messianic can be Jew or Gentile. They believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that He died on the tree and was buried and rose again. While there can be varieties of Messianic groups they do follow the Jewish rituals, dietary laws, etc.. They do not celebrate Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc.. The do celebrate Passover, Chanukkah, Sukkot, Purim, etc..
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby natman » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:06 am

It certainly IS and old post.

Reading through it brought to mind the bitter sweet memory of the OP, Livingfree, who has since gone home to be with the Lord. Though we miss him a lot, we know now that he is indeed truely "living free".

Thanks for bringing this to light again.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby Kiki » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:31 pm

natman wrote:It certainly IS and old post.

Reading through it brought to mind the bitter sweet memory of the OP, Livingfree, who has since gone home to be with the Lord. Though we miss him a lot, we know now that he is indeed truely "living free".

Thanks for bringing this to light again.


Sorry, I was unaware of his passing.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby jochanaan » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:10 pm

Kiki wrote:
natman wrote:It certainly IS and old post.

Reading through it brought to mind the bitter sweet memory of the OP, Livingfree, who has since gone home to be with the Lord. Though we miss him a lot, we know now that he is indeed truely "living free".

Thanks for bringing this to light again.


Sorry, I was unaware of his passing.

No apology needed. I have found memories of all my interactions with him. And I fully expect to meet him again before God's throne. 8)
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby Ramblinman » Sat May 30, 2009 12:14 pm

I think that joining a Messianic congregation is the most beneficial option for a Jew who has come to believe in Jesus (Yeshua) as Messiah.

Pardon me for saying so, but Jews for Jesus is essentially asking Jews to commit cultural suicide by joining mainline protestant churches.

By contrast, Messianic congregations are an easier transition for the Jewish-born believer in Christ.

The congregations I have visited have quite a few mixed marriages and they seem to do a good balancing act introducing the goy (gentile) spouse to Jewish culture and keeping an order of worship that is almost Orthodox having cantors, Torah procession, erev shabat rituals, and reciting Sh'ma, maybe with a few Reform concessions to modern ways (men and women sitting together for example, singing some songs in English for another example). And I have never ever heard the divine name uttered in public. It is exclusively reverently taught in small group settings. Even the English reference to deity, "God" is generally spelled in print with the vowel substituted by _ (underscore character) to avoid any possibility of blasphemy.

Unless they are rebelling against their upbringing, someone raised Orthodox must surely cringe every time they have to endure some of the things that go on in the typical protestant order of worship. Clearly Messianic worship fills a great need among those with Jewish backgrounds who love Messiah Jesus.

Even so, a Messianic Jew is sometimes disowned as a traitor and Christian by family members.

I have Jewish roots on one side of my family and I found it very refreshing to learn about my Jewish heritage from the Messianic movement, but when it is all said and done, after two generations of protestant worship in my family, I ultimately feel more comfortable in a traditional church for my primary faith home, but sometimes on Shabat and especially high holy days, I feel a tug on my talis for the style of worship that Grandma's family once cherished.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby natman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:21 am

I attended a Messianic temple here in Houston for a while with a friend who taught Hebrew. There were several there who admitted that their families actually held a "funeral" service for them when they announced Christ as Messiah and were then treated as non-persons.


The services reminded me of my youth in the Roman Catholic Church when the services were conducted completely in Latin. There was a lot of dialog that SOUNDED pious and religious, even poetic, but had very little meaning to me beyond that.



I have friends who have attended contemporary protestant evangelical churches for years who have recently becomed enamoured by the litergy and high-church atmosphere of the Catholic Church and so have now joined, despite the various doctrinal conflicts and difficulties. The truth is that some people much prefer consistant traditional litergy over the varied contemporary services of today's churches. The important thing is that they are hearing and reading the Word of God at least weekly and that they are fellowshipping with and supporting other Christians and reaching out to their communities.



Praise God that He has provided so many ways for us to worship and commune with Him.
SON-cerely,
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:48 am

At the Messianic congregation I visited, I never felt that it was dead ritual in some foreign language. They did a great job explaining the significance of every aspect of the worship. The Hebrew and Engllish text were side by side and we had formal and informal Hebrew lessons on a weekly basis. The worship was the most joyful I have ever experienced, but always always on solid biblical standing.

I am in a Protestant denomination that varies from contemporary worship style, very liturgical high church and in rural areas, many of our congregations are more relaxed in order of worship and dress and they like singing a happy mix of old time gospel songs, hymns and a few contemporary praise songs. I guess I fit best into this latter category.
And most congregations have solid doctrine (at least in this part of the US, but they don't generally preach the "clothes line", don't teach "pastor is king" and don't practice shepherding (although moderate discipleship is encouraged).

I love my Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox neighbors, but my understanding of scripture is at such divergence from their dogma, that I have no intention of joining such churches.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby dby » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:49 am

Ramblinman wrote:At the Messianic congregation I visited, I never felt that it was dead ritual in some foreign language. They did a great job explaining the significance of every aspect of the worship. The Hebrew and Engllish text were side by side and we had formal and informal Hebrew lessons on a weekly basis. The worship was the most joyful I have ever experienced, but always always on solid biblical standing.


Obviously our practice varies by congregation. I have friends on both ends of the spectrum. Thursday night I went to a Shavuot ("Pentacost" for those who know Greek) celebration at a friends house. He had a minyan of men over and we prayed the entire afternoon and evening services in Hebrew, had dinner, and spend the entire night discussing the Scriptures. (I brought up the subject of our immersions not being valid by Orthodox standards since obviously we conduct them with the person being clothed.) At sunrise we prayed the entire morning service in Hebrew. I'll confess that praying the Hebrew services at 60 miles an hour doesn't do much for me.

Yesterday I went to a multi-congregatonal Shavuot celebration that was much more on the Charismatic side of the spectrum. I'm a bit more comfortable with that style of worship.

And most congregations have solid doctrine (at least in this part of the US, but they don't generally preach the "clothes line",


Obviously most of our congregations are going to hold to something fairly close to Orthodox Tzinut (modesty) standards. (I use this as a proof that most consider rabbinic tradition to have validity to those who claim that they don't follow the rabbis.) Also, fullfilling the command of tzitzit is impossible apart from clothing.

don't teach "pastor is king" and don't practice shepherding (although moderate discipleship is encouraged).


Again, this will vary by the congregation. I've seen some horror stories of people who have been adversly "shepherded" with various Messianic congregations. I tend to resist such things, and can find the door by myself.
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Re: Correlation between Branches of Judaism and Christianity

Postby Kiki » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:31 am

Ramblinman wrote:I think that joining a Messianic congregation is the most beneficial option for a Jew who has come to believe in Jesus (Yeshua) as Messiah.

Pardon me for saying so, but Jews for Jesus is essentially asking Jews to commit cultural suicide by joining mainline protestant churches.

By contrast, Messianic congregations are an easier transition for the Jewish-born believer in Christ.

The congregations I have visited have quite a few mixed marriages and they seem to do a good balancing act introducing the goy (gentile) spouse to Jewish culture and keeping an order of worship that is almost Orthodox having cantors, Torah procession, erev shabat rituals, and reciting Sh'ma, maybe with a few Reform concessions to modern ways (men and women sitting together for example, singing some songs in English for another example). And I have never ever heard the divine name uttered in public. It is exclusively reverently taught in small group settings. Even the English reference to deity, "God" is generally spelled in print with the vowel substituted by _ (underscore character) to avoid any possibility of blasphemy.

Unless they are rebelling against their upbringing, someone raised Orthodox must surely cringe every time they have to endure some of the things that go on in the typical protestant order of worship. Clearly Messianic worship fills a great need among those with Jewish backgrounds who love Messiah Jesus.

Even so, a Messianic Jew is sometimes disowned as a traitor and Christian by family members.

I have Jewish roots on one side of my family and I found it very refreshing to learn about my Jewish heritage from the Messianic movement, but when it is all said and done, after two generations of protestant worship in my family, I ultimately feel more comfortable in a traditional church for my primary faith home, but sometimes on Shabat and especially high holy days, I feel a tug on my talis for the style of worship that Grandma's family once cherished.


As far as I know I have no Jewish ancestry (although, my family came from Bavaria, so we could have). I was raised in the Pentecostal church and had no major issues with it. However, a few years back I was drawn to the Messianic movement. For me personally, when I attended my first meeting I was drawn to the fact that the entire service was not just about God but totally revolved around Him. I liked that.
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