Just how other is other ?

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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby Petros » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:51 am

But for some - check out the history of the creeds - the transaction is fundamental. I strongly suspect that is where my mother was [though she rarely chose or agreed to talk of such things].
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby bn2bnude » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:07 pm

Petros wrote:But for some - check out the history of the creeds - the transaction is fundamental.


The transaction is a start but not the end of the process.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby Petros » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:17 pm

Well, quite - which is part of why after my conversion I could not talk about the faith with my mother.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:11 pm

Lets face it. This Transactional vs Relational thing in religion goes back a long way.
Satan apparantly saw all religion as transactional when he said to God,
Satan wrote:Job 1:9-11
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

As much as Job knew, his limited human understanding was woefully short of the truth. Even though Job's understanding of God was greatly flawed, nevertheless he stuck to his relation with God and in the end came to better understand God.
Job wrote:Job 42:1-3
1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.


With all we know, we are still woefully short in our understanding. Even an apostles testify to this.
Paul wrote:1Cor 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

and John wrote:1Jn 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is..

So given the limited capacities of human flesh and even with the aid of the Holy Spirit we see only as through a glass darkly and yet we see a staggeringly great future with God. No paltry transaction which we might make with God could possibly bring us that, even though we might often begin the process with transactions. No wonder a salvation by works cannot suffice.

Consider Abraham, of whom it is amply testified that he is the "father of the faithful":
Gal 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Of this unique man it says:
Jas 2:23
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Now that is RELATIONAL not transactional!
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby floridabill » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:09 am

I think,
It starts with transactional and end with relational - at least for alot of people.

For me it was the desire for the relation that enabled me to see the transaction. Once I embrassed the transaction, the relation developed.

FB
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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby natman » Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:07 pm

floridabill wrote:I think,
It starts with transactional and end with relational - at least for alot of people.

For me it was the desire for the relation that enabled me to see the transaction. Once I embrassed the transaction, the relation developed.

FB



I "think" that is true for all relationships. We must first discover the person we desire to relate to before we can actually relate to them or allow them to relate to us.



Until we come to understand that there is a God in Heaven Who created us, loves us, wants to have a relatioship with us and to bless us, we tend toward "transactional" activites, thinking that we MUST do this or that just to be accepted.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Re: Just how other is other ?

Postby Bare_Truth » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:51 pm

natman wrote:we tend toward "transactional" activites, thinking that we MUST do this or that just to be accepted.


Of course you speak of transactional "doings", but it is so easy to confuse transactional doings with the doings that represent the fruits of the spirit manifested in a Christian life. I think it is important to say that there are some things we must do, at least "to" or "for" ourselves to move the process forward.

For instance, if many are called but few are chosen (Mat 20:16 & 22:14), at the very least:
-- We must answer the call rather than turn our back and walk away,
-- We must accept the atonement that Christ made for us,
-- We must repent.
And of course that is just the beginning.

Then,
-- As James 2:18 et.al tells us, if we truly have faith, we will have works.
-- Mat 25:32-46, the sheep had works and the goats did not.
-- In Mat 24:45-51, there is the good servant who is blessed in doing his masters will rather than like the evil servant.

There are really two types of doing that I note above. Actions that involve our accepting the gracious gift of God, and actions that will follow if our acceptance is sincere. And of course, neither could possibly "earn" that salvation and the second type should arise spontaneously. So these are not transactional since there is no quid pro quo to denote a trade, deal, or purchase.
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