Dispensationalism - What is it???

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Postby boondon » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:18 pm

This is a great discuaaion with lots of good stuff. Sooooo.... Let me toss one of my monkey wrenches in here. One of the reasons I "backed away" from the classical belief in the 7 year Tribulation/ pre-trib rapture of the church, etc. is that I read a book some time ago called "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marv Rosenthal. He used to be Director of the Friends of Israel Gospel Minisitry. He is Jewish by background so I have respected his take on defining what the "Day of the Lord" means to Jews. In short, he says that the Day of the Lord occurs at the end of the Tribulation when God pours His wrath out on the inhabitants of Earth. The Church, however, is raptured beforehand. So strong was his case that my old church near Niagara Falls changed their church constitution to reflect this belief. Like I said before, I am quite simply open that Jesus is coming soon but I certainly do not know how or when. I do think that because the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel has not occurred yet, that the Temple will be rebuilt someday (and probably soon). Personally I am looking for the Israelis to "dispose of" the Dome of the Rock that now sits on the temple mount in some way. That will cause quite an International stir! but at some point I think Israel will believe that by doing so they will have nothing to lose and all to gain! That will give the great "peacemaker, the Anti-Christ, a reason to show up and make his pact with Israel to get things started in the end times. Just a few cents from me....
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Postby nudjohn » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:50 pm

boondon wrote:This is a great discuaaion with lots of good stuff. Sooooo.... Let me toss one of my monkey wrenches in here. One of the reasons I "backed away" from the classical belief in the 7 year Tribulation/ pre-trib rapture of the church, etc. is that I read a book some time ago called "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" by Marv Rosenthal. He used to be Director of the Friends of Israel Gospel Minisitry. He is Jewish by background so I have respected his take on defining what the "Day of the Lord" means to Jews. In short, he says that the Day of the Lord occurs at the end of the Tribulation when God pours His wrath out on the inhabitants of Earth. The Church, however, is raptured beforehand. So strong was his case that my old church near Niagara Falls changed their church constitution to reflect this belief. Like I said before, I am quite simply open that Jesus is coming soon but I certainly do not know how or when. I do think that because the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel has not occurred yet, that the Temple will be rebuilt someday (and probably soon). Personally I am looking for the Israelis to "dispose of" the Dome of the Rock that now sits on the temple mount in some way. That will cause quite an International stir! but at some point I think Israel will believe that by doing so they will have nothing to lose and all to gain! That will give the great "peacemaker, the Anti-Christ, a reason to show up and make his pact with Israel to get things started in the end times. Just a few cents from me....
Don



It also states that the outer courts will be given over to the gentiles... gentiles were simply those who aren't jews.

Revelation 11
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
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Postby natman » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:52 pm

boondon wrote:I do think that because the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel has not occurred yet, that the Temple will be rebuilt someday (and probably soon).


I think it has already occurred, just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD. The Romans placed the Roman Standard, a banner representing Caesar inside the Temple.

Matt 24:15-16 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mark 13:14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Luke 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near."

In context, all of these verses are talking about the imminent destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

All three end with the assertion "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Mt 24:34, Mk 13:30, Lk 21:32)
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Postby natman » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:01 am

Moderators note: Discussion about the language that Jesus spoke has been moved to the strip (thread) "What language did Jesus speak?" at http://www.cnvillage.org/viewtopic.php?p=14797#14797
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Postby boondon » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:23 am

Well, I guess we can easily see why there are so many views on the future. I'm not sure, but I think that if we view Matthew 24 as already being fulfilled that we might tend to be stepping into the Amilleniallist's position. but to me, they seem to believe that there isn't much going on with the nation of Israel, but that the church has taken its place in God's dealing with man. Unless I'm mistaken, amilleniallism believes that when the church evangelizes the Earth and all is ready, then Jesus will make His return, but He does not establish a 1000 year reign. The book of Revelation, however, states that Satan will be loosed upon the Earth AFTER a 1000 years and then is once and for all judged. Sooooooo....... Lots of complications, aren't there?
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Postby jochanaan » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:31 am

boondon wrote:...Unless I'm mistaken, amilleniallism believes that when the church evangelizes the Earth and all is ready, then Jesus will make His return, but He does not establish a 1000 year reign...

We haven't done a very good job to date, haven't we? :? And there's always the possibility that this view stands against the plain sense of the Revelation prophecies...
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Postby natman » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:45 pm

boondon wrote:to me, they seem to believe that there isn't much going on with the nation of Israel, but that the church has taken its place in God's dealing with man.


The Church hasn't taken Israel's place. It is the continuation of Israel, "God's chosen people", as distinquished from Israel the nation. The OT was not simply about a "nation" of people that had a genetic tie back to Jacob and Abraham, but a people that had a relationship with God, who looked forward to a promised Redeemer. Even then, it included those that were grafted into Israel, such as Rahab, Ruth, the thousands of Persians that became Jews because of the work of Ester and the Ninevites to whom God sent a reluctant Jonah. It was never really about "race", but always about "relationship".

Unless I'm mistaken, amilleniallism believes that when the church evangelizes the Earth and all is ready, then Jesus will make His return, but He does not establish a 1000 year reign. The book of Revelation, however, states that Satan will be loosed upon the Earth AFTER a 1000 years and then is once and for all judged. Sooooooo....... Lots of complications, aren't there?


Not really, if you are accustomed to reading the Bible in the literary form in which it was written. Whenever you see the round number "1000", it is used in the same way we would say "a whole lot" of something or a "large, undetermined number" of something. A good example is when the Bible says God "owns the cattle on a thousand hills." (Ps 50). Certainly He own the cattle on far more than a thousand hills.

So when Rev 20:6 says "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.", it is saying those that have taken part in the first resurrection, which is spiritual resurrection that occurs the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, will reign with Christ for a long, undetermined amout of time, not a literal 1000 (or 1007) years. That period of time began the moment Jesus died on the cross, thereby defeating Satan, placing him on a short leash (Rec 20:1-2), and will continue until Jesus' final return.
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Postby nudjohn » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:55 pm

well, if that is the case, then we are lousy at reigning where in crime rates increase each year......
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Postby natman » Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:04 am

Yes we are. But we must also remember that Satan is only on a short leash. He has not yet been completely removed from the picture. That will happen right after Jesus' final return. Satan will be loosed "for a short time" (Rev 20:3). He will gather his troops for a final attack, but before he is able to attack, he and his minions will be scooped up and thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:7-10) (Note that the passage never indicates that Satan is in any way successful). This can happen in a matter of seconds, hours or days.

Our current "reign" with Christ involves growing the Church, True Israel, God's chosen people, through the spreading of the Gospel to every tongue, tribe and nation. It is not the type of reign that we will partake in AFTER Jesus' coming, when there will be a new Heaven, a New Earth and a new Jerusalem (the throne of our Christ) shall rest on the Earth. Jesus shall reign from right here with us. And there will be no more tears, "no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Rev 21:4)

Paradise Lost becomes Paradise Restored.
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Re: Dispensationalism - What is it???

Postby nuudman » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:59 am

Wow guys. I just found and read this thread. What a great discussion. And the fact that it went so civilly is a great reflection on everyone on this board. Has anyone seen boondon around lately tho?
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Re: Dispensationalism - What is it???

Postby natman » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:20 pm

Unfortunately not. His last post appears to be in January of 2009.


:areyouthere?: Boondon!!!! Are you out there???
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