Who We Are - Religious Background

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What is your religious background?

Roman Catholic/Orthodox Catholic
10
8%
Methodist
9
7%
Lutheran
4
3%
Presbyterian
6
5%
Episcopal/Church of England
4
3%
Baptist
31
26%
Pentecostal
11
9%
Non-denominational Christian/Other
41
34%
Latter Day Saints
1
1%
Non-Christian
4
3%
 
Total votes : 121

Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby ezduzit » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:58 am

Johannes_1965 wrote:
CnSnC wrote: Can a person or group of people with faith, can they pray someone else into heaven? I have an aunt who believes that a person can be saved just by her and her church praying for them. I believe there was also a incident recently of LDS people praying jews into heaven. Something like that.

I would say no and yes.
No, we can't pray someone into heaven in the sense of "quick prayerism" explained by Ez on the other strip about salvation. It's not we who save others by our prayers in two minutes.
Yes, God's want's our prayers of faith and trust united with the prayer of Christ. God saves and gives grace in answer to prayers of individuals and of the Church. I prefer to express this negatively: persons go to hell because nobody prays and cares for them.


It is true we should pray for and love the lost but,
People go to hell because of unbelief ...................
Ez

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
ezduzit
 

Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby jochanaan » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:12 pm

Johannes_1965 wrote:Faith or trust in God is what opens the adult to grace. It is always God who saves by his love and mercy. Faith is only instrumental: no more than my response, no more than my openness to receive it. A child can already receive love and mercy without being capable of conscious acts of faith. It does receive human love from it's parents and divine love through baptism and our prayers. God acts on the child in baptism, making it his child, his temple, and he does so by means of the faithful minister of baptism. This is adult faith in baptism, faith in the sacraments, faith in the Church as Body of Christ, faith in Christ who continues to save through his Body...
This is very true, and many Protestant churches, including my own Seventh Day Baptists, provide a ceremony of infant dedication to honor it. We do not call it "baptism," preferring to reserve that term for a conscious dedication to God by the individual (not his or her parents, guardians or other influential persons).
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby Johannes_1965 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:11 am

ezduzit wrote:...It is true we should pray for and love the lost but,
People go to hell because of unbelief ...................
Ez

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

OK, condemnation because of unbelief, refusal of faith. Remains the question what that means.
The Son of Man in Mat 25,31-46 doesn't ask about faith, doesn't ask for the creed, in order to enter the definitive kingdom of God (Mat 25,34). He asks for the corporal works of charity or mercy as his only criteria.
How do you explain this?
Johannes
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."
(John 15,5)
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby ezduzit » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:22 am

Johannes_1965 wrote:
ezduzit wrote:...It is true we should pray for and love the lost but,
People go to hell because of unbelief ...................
Ez

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

OK, condemnation because of unbelief, refusal of faith. Remains the question what that means.
The Son of Man in Mat 25,31-46 doesn't ask about faith, doesn't ask for the creed, in order to enter the definitive kingdom of God (Mat 25,34). He asks for the corporal works of charity or mercy as his only criteria.
How do you explain this?
Johannes


Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works are a result of salvation , not for salvation

Ez
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby Johannes_1965 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:02 pm

Sorry Ez,
Your verses contradict Jesus in Mat 25,31-46. (Too long to quote here, I trust you have your Bible!)
I agree, we are saved by grace and I've quoted Titus 3,5 myself in favor of infant baptism.
The verses you quoted don't explain why Jesus as the Son of Man doesn't judge according to faith but according to works of charity/mercy in Mat 25,31-46. Or why does he say: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven..." (Mat 7,21-27)?
Johannes
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."
(John 15,5)
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby ezduzit » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:02 pm

Johannes_1965 wrote:Sorry Ez,
Your verses contradict Jesus in Mat 25,31-46. (Too long to quote here, I trust you have your Bible!)
I agree, we are saved by grace and I've quoted Titus 3,5 myself in favor of infant baptism.
The verses you quoted don't explain why Jesus as the Son of Man doesn't judge according to faith but according to works of charity/mercy in Mat 25,31-46. Or why does he say: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven..." (Mat 7,21-27)?
Johannes


2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Since ALL scripture is given by God and is God`s word there are no contradictions , whether they are printed in red or black type or who penned them.
IF you are correct in your interpretation of Matt.25:31-36 , Christ died for no reason since our "good works / deeds" bring salvation...... that my friend is a dangerous conclusion to come to .
An example of good works gone bad..............Matt.7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ez

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby jochanaan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:54 pm

Another very important passage to this discussion is James 2:17-18:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
I do not see James 2 as in any way indicating that works save us; only as reminding us that works are a part of the gift of faith. We are indeed saved by grace through faith; but if faith doesn't produce a change of works, words and thoughts--if it doesn't change one's entire life--then it isn't saving faith. And without the love which is His nature, works do little good even at the most physical level. So even our good works are gifts from God, part of the package that is "faith, hope, love". (I Corinthians 13:13)
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby Johannes_1965 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:49 am

jochanaan wrote:Another very important passage to this discussion is James 2:17-18:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
I do not see James 2 as in any way indicating that works save us; only as reminding us that works are a part of the gift of faith. We are indeed saved by grace through faith; but if faith doesn't produce a change of works, words and thoughts--if it doesn't change one's entire life--then it isn't saving faith. And without the love which is His nature, works do little good even at the most physical level. So even our good works are gifts from God, part of the package that is "faith, hope, love". (I Corinthians 13:13)

Thanks, Jochanaan, for your answer which gets already close to my own one. Only faith that is active and living in love saves. Even Paul admits: "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." (1Cor 13,2)

Because love or charity is the essence of Christian life it can save even without explicit, conscious faith in Christ. That's what the Son of Man says in Mat 24,31-46. This opens the door of life to simple people of good will from other religions as Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism, to the "just of the nations" who are just because they follow the voice of God in their conscience: "Consider the blameless, observe the upright; there is a future for the man of peace." (Psa 37,37)
Even though the Lord has given us faith in his biblical revelation and grace as a sure way of salvation, He Himself doesn't need explicit faith in Christ to save human beings. He needs an openness to his truth and love in the heart (conscience). The way of love is open to all humans, not only to Christians. Christ judges according to love - or do you want to wipe out Mat 24,31-46 from your Bible in order to save your favorite "only faith" verses from Paul?

"Not through works but through faith" means not through ritual works of external, "superficial" obedience to the "Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph 2,15). But through a Christian live in love, as a result of faith : "Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love..." (Eph 4)
Johannes
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."
(John 15,5)
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby ezduzit » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:17 am

Thanks, Jochanaan, for your answer which gets already close to my own one. Only faith that is active and living in love saves. Even Paul admits: "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." (1Cor 13,2)

Because love or charity is the essence of Christian life it can save even without explicit, conscious faith in Christ. That's what the Son of Man says in Mat 24,31-46. This opens the door of life to simple people of good will from other religions as Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism, to the "just of the nations" who are just because they follow the voice of God in their conscience: "Consider the blameless, observe the upright; there is a future for the man of peace." (Psa 37,37)
Even though the Lord has given us faith in his biblical revelation and grace as a sure way of salvation, He Himself doesn't need explicit faith in Christ to save human beings. He needs an openness to his truth and love in the heart (conscience). The way of love is open to all humans, not only to Christians. Christ judges according to love - or do you want to wipe out Mat 24,31-46 from your Bible in order to save your favorite "only faith" verses from Paul?

"Not through works but through faith" means not through ritual works of external, "superficial" obedience to the "Law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph 2,15). But through a Christian live in love, as a result of faith : "Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love..." (Eph 4)
Johannes[/quote]


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works and grace mix about as well as oil and water, you just can`t do it
Ez
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby jochanaan » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:31 pm

ezduzit wrote:Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works and grace mix about as well as oil and water, you just can`t do it
Ez
But grace that doesn't evoke works is weak grace, not God's grace.
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby ezduzit » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:01 pm

jochanaan wrote:
ezduzit wrote:Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Works and grace mix about as well as oil and water, you just can`t do it
Ez


But grace that doesn't evoke works is weak grace, not God's grace.



James deals with this in Chapter 2.................. works are an evidence of salvation , not something done for salvation
Ez

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby Johannes_1965 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:11 pm

ezduzit wrote:James deals with this in Chapter 2... works are an evidence of salvation , not something done for salvation
Ez
...
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Thanks, I can agree with that! That's about what I wanted to say.
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit..."
(John 15,5)
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby jochanaan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:59 pm

Exactly, ezduzit! I thought that our understandings were pretty close if not identical. In fact, I see no reason for the "long division" between various branches of Christianity over this issue. :(
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby KCLIM » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:56 am

i am a free thinker. good to hear around!
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Re: Who We Are - Religious Background

Postby ezduzit » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:55 am

KCLIM wrote:i am a free thinker. good to hear around!


Welcome to CNV, feel free to join in the conversations
EZ
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