the "Nones"

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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Ramblinman » Sun May 11, 2014 11:19 am

Petros wrote:...It is a byproduct of the institution, basic human nature. Just as you cannot have a city without a sewage system, you cannot have an organization without a Great Oz supeman as leader.

Sounds a bit extreme.
My denomination is led by bishops who govern by consensus. This is leadership rather than a "Great Oz".
They have collectively a lot of power, but no one bishop wields it all. Each must answer to the others for his behavior.
And the rank and file (laity) are not without a voice. Dogma is very unlikely to change, but there is a lot our denomination does that is more a matter of tactic and execution than doctrine itself.
I wish large wealthy congregations were not more influential than small congregations of modest incomes, but I certainly would not say that Dark Lord Sauron rules us all, at least not yet.
Last edited by Ramblinman on Sun May 18, 2014 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the "Nones" ie why nobody.........

Postby ezduzit » Sun May 11, 2014 1:37 pm

The Anti-Business Church
JANUARY 22, 2014 BY THOM SCHULTZ



A FRUSTRATED BUSINESS GUY

Recently I received an email from a life-long churchman who read our book, Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore. He wrote: “I decided to visit other churches of all denominations to verify the validity of all I had heard about the demise of Christianity. I found what I was hearing was true.

“I am finding most churches are not willing to consider changes that would bring people to Christ and save their churches from dying soon. I am finding most ministers theologically qualified but resistant to anyone from outside their church suggesting any change. I have 50 years experience in entrepreneurial companies and find it crazy for ministers in dying churches so tied to doctrine and ego that they refuse to explore ways to turn their church around and become a refuge for believers and unbelievers alike.”

It’s literally true. The church is not a business. But that’s no excuse for lazy resistance to ideas that can help the church fulfill its mission. I close with another of Jesus’ business examples: “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.”
[/quote]

It would be interesting to what changes he has in mind , also the ideas to help a church fulfill its mission
Ez
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Re: the "Nones" ie why nobody.........

Postby bn2bnude » Sun May 11, 2014 9:25 pm

ezduzit wrote:
The Anti-Business Church
JANUARY 22, 2014 BY THOM SCHULTZ



A FRUSTRATED BUSINESS GUY

Recently I received an email from a life-long churchman who read our book, Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore. He wrote: “I decided to visit other churches of all denominations to verify the validity of all I had heard about the demise of Christianity. I found what I was hearing was true.

“I am finding most churches are not willing to consider changes that would bring people to Christ and save their churches from dying soon. I am finding most ministers theologically qualified but resistant to anyone from outside their church suggesting any change. I have 50 years experience in entrepreneurial companies and find it crazy for ministers in dying churches so tied to doctrine and ego that they refuse to explore ways to turn their church around and become a refuge for believers and unbelievers alike.”

It’s literally true. The church is not a business. But that’s no excuse for lazy resistance to ideas that can help the church fulfill its mission. I close with another of Jesus’ business examples: “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.”


It would be interesting to what changes he has in mind , also the ideas to help a church fulfill its mission
Ez

The way I heard about this blog was throw a radio interview called God Blogger. The specific episode is here.

The easy and more complete answer (and the one you ultimately get from the audio) is buy his book. He also, however, was near the station in Canada teaching the church these things.

***** Edited In Content ****

I dug some more and found a post that it sounds like the book expounds on (I've not yet read the book).

Welcome Those Who Fled the Church
SEPTEMBER 11, 2013 BY THOM SCHULTZ

If most people currently avoid church (they do), how might the church change to be more welcoming to these exiles?

This was a critical question as my wife Joani and I set out to research the culture before we wrote our new book, Why Nobody Wants to Go to Church Anymore. We landed on four things that people today would like to find in a church.

In my last post I identified four reasons that people avoid church. The flipside of these things form what, in the book, we call the “Four Acts of Love.” These are the things that we find people craving, what they wish the church, the Body of Christ, would provide:

    Radical Hospitality
    Fearless Conversation
    Genuine Humility
    Divine Anticipation

In coming posts here I’ll preview each of these Acts of Love. Today I’ll start with Radical Hospitality. In our research for the book we found that most congregations believe their churches are friendly and hospitable. But they tend to make that critique based on cosmetic things that most people don’t equate with a true welcome.

We describe how Radical Hospitality is NOT:

greeters at the door
meet-and-greet time in the service
an espresso bar
parking lot attendants
awarding prizes for bringing visitors
Instead, Radical Hospitality begins with extending the kind of genuine welcome that Jesus demonstrated. He exemplified an unconditional love for the misfits, the outcasts, the weak, the young, the broken, the prostitutes.

We tell the story of a remarkable night when an unusual guest showed up at a Lifetree Cafe program titled “Temptation: Why Good Men Go Bad.” The hour featured a filmed interview with Ted Haggard, the megachurch pastor who started a new church after his sizzling sex scandal with a male prostitute.

Who showed up for this Lifetree episode? Mike Jones–the male prostitute whom Ted Haggard hired. He outed himself at the beginning of the hour. The tension at that moment was palpable. But one by one, the Christians in the room began to envelope Jones with Radical Hospitality. An hour of open, honest, loving conversation followed. The group tackled the issue of temptation and grappled with Jesus’ words from the Lord’s Prayer: “Lead us not into temptation.”

At the conclusion of the program, Jones stuck around and talked for another hour with Christ’s followers. He shared how he expected this crowd to react with judgmentalism toward him. He was surprised to encounter a refreshing splash of Radical Hospitality.

Radical Hospitality finds ways to welcome, to include, to love, without the snarl of judgmentalism, exclusivism, or elitism. As Jesus demonstrated, this doesn’t mean we condone a prostitute’s behavior. But we can fully accept the person. Acceptance does not require endorsement.

Jones thanked the people for welcoming him, accepting him, and listening to him. As he turned to leave, he said he wished such a place, with this kind of hospitality, existed near his home. “I have some friends I’d like to experience this.”

For the love of Christ.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby Petros » Mon May 12, 2014 1:01 am

Ramblinman -

I am known to engage in hyperbole on occasion. It is very true that in time in a milk bottle cream will tend to rise to the top, and various impurities will drift to the bottom, and that is the general trend of human institutions. But it IS possible to slow the process in the bottle with techniques such as homogenization, and in the organization a diffuse authority structure can help a lot. We have really done not too badly in this country thanks to the checks and balancs structure.

But it requires ceaseless and effortful vigilance to counter the nartural drives of both powerseekers and conflict avoiders.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby vycna » Mon May 12, 2014 9:30 pm

vycna:
I am meaning no accusation, as it maybe was perceived. If any are not in a formal church, but in fellowship with other believers, this qualifies for what is needed of that. I would just say it should be as often as we might do so. I also say there are many, many things, in which we should all grow, self included. Fellowship, with God and with fellow believers, is desirable for that.

bn2bnude:
A little while later the author published [url=http://holysoup.com/2013/10/09/blame-the-unchurched-for-everything/]this post[/url].

I understand the difference between unbelievers, and Christian believers who seldom would go to any church, such that they do not belong to a church. I have met a number of them. And I have heard the reasons to not go to church, those and several more. The fellowship, whether it is organized church or something simpler, at it was commonly in early Christianity, is an essential that believers are called to, by Christ and his apostles. When we get to that statement: 4. “Your God is irrelevant to my life. But I’d like to know there is a God and he cares about me”, we are not hearing that from believers, but this is something that may be desired by nonbelievers, those not wanting atheism but will only want to know of a God in the image they want, one that is pleasing to them. God does indeed care, even for each of his creatures, as many as there are, as he is without any limit. But he does not compromise who he is, in his goodness and his holiness. That sounds nice, but might make some of us uncomfortable, as it it leaves no room to tolerate any wickedness, anything contrary to him. But he would have us learn it, to come to be right with him. With that we can see that his is the highest good, and trust him with conforming to things his way, that we may learn through Christ. This is to be shared with others, it will never be enough for them to be left with their own image for God.
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Re: the "Nones"

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:02 pm

I recently ran across the article on page 25-28 in this online magazine...

[url=http://www.ptm.org/14PT/summer/files/assets/basic-html/index.html#28]Plain Truth Magazine[/quote] (not from world wide church of God -- That one is called "The plain truth"

The synopsis is a father telling why he feels the millennials are leaving church life behind and his son telling his own stories.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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