Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:06 am

Finally I got the chance to watch this. It is interesting that his second alternative comes to him from an Eastern source. The other has its origins in Roman / Germanic ideas [for a not bad essay> http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/cur-deus-homo/ < ]. As a general rule, the West is more reason / theory / rule driven - more down to earth - while the East is more emotion / insight / vision powered, with minimal explication. Not that there are no exceptions.

The two views presented differ, I should say, in that A attempts to explain God's work, while B prefers to listen to the music without checking the score.

An individual mind will prefer one to the other - thus Dilbert here opts for "Western" thinking:



But of course, that does not make either a complete account of the elephant, which I think must encompass both and more.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby jjsledge » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:56 am

When I am commenting on my part of the elephant I must remember that it is SO much bigger than I can imagine.

Jerry
Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby prairieboy » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:12 pm



Very helpful explanation.

The two chairs is very good as well.
Thank you both
Gerald
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:41 am

prairieboy wrote:


Very helpful explanation.

The two chairs is very good as well.
Thank you both
Gerald

I'm glad they helped...

I really believe that God/Jesus can work through our worst and most destructive beliefs as well as our best and most glorious ones. At the same time, I keep wondering "What if the God I think I believe in is so very much different".
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby natman » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:09 pm

bn2bnude wrote:I keep wondering "What if the God I think I believe in is so very much different".


He undoubtedly is different that any "preconceived" notions we may have about Him, but I am certain He is precisely as He has revealed Himself in Scripture in those areas that He has revealed Himself.
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:24 pm

natman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I keep wondering "What if the God I think I believe in is so very much different".


He undoubtedly is different that any "preconceived" notions we may have about Him, but I am certain He is precisely as He has revealed Himself in Scripture in those areas that He has revealed Himself.

The last time you stood on the shores of the Gulf of Mexico, you saw what your eyes could reveal to you. Is that all there is to know about the Gulf? Probably not!
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby natman » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:08 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
natman wrote:
bn2bnude wrote:I keep wondering "What if the God I think I believe in is so very much different".


He undoubtedly is different that any "preconceived" notions we may have about Him, but I am certain He is precisely as He has revealed Himself in Scripture in those areas that He has revealed Himself.

The last time you stood on the shores of the Gulf of Mexico, you saw what your eyes could reveal to you. Is that all there is to know about the Gulf? Probably not!


I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. :D
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby vycna » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:40 pm

I would give another perspective on the question.

It had been answered, "Did God forsake Jesus? Surely not. ...he was quoting Psalm 22."

Yes it was a quote of that psalm, the psalm was also prophetic of him. Therefore what he said, quote though it was, he felt for himself. The answer to why he would feel forsaken of God the Father is suggested with the later comment, "the penalty for sin is more than just physical death". Jesus is the incarnation of Logos, the Word with God who is God. He endured the penalty of sin, all of it that would be for the redeemed, that he bore in place of them. It would indeed be more than his physical death, this in itself with understanding the payment shows that Jesus Christ is more than merely a man. The penalty was not with his descent to hell, it was finished with the cross. Yet the payment he took no one else could bear. It was with his total being, he was not divinity with it being everywhere which is then crammed into one limited human being. The man he became is God, that is, he does not stop being the supreme being with that. But his full reality continues, it is everywhere, it is eternal. He is in full union with the heavenly Father as one. Yet in this payment, he bore the penalty with all his being, what we could not bear, and finished it. With this he was cut off from the heavenly Father, an experience that was unique in this one time, and what we can't understand with separation in the one being of God. This that was planned from eternity was what it took and the payment is effective, The feeling of being forsaken was an understatement of the experience that we cannot understand. Yet it was temporary and it was for our sake, with his incomprehensible love for us.
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby bn2bnude » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:41 pm

vycna wrote:I would give another perspective on the question.

It had been answered, "Did God forsake Jesus? Surely not. ...he was quoting Psalm 22."

Yes it was a quote of that psalm, the psalm was also prophetic of him. Therefore what he said, quote though it was, he felt for himself. The answer to why he would feel forsaken of God the Father is suggested with the later comment, "the penalty for sin is more than just physical death". Jesus is the incarnation of Logos, the Word with God who is God. He endured the penalty of sin, all of it that would be for the redeemed, that he bore in place of them. It would indeed be more than his physical death, this in itself with understanding the payment shows that Jesus Christ is more than merely a man. The penalty was not with his descent to hell, it was finished with the cross. Yet the payment he took no one else could bear. It was with his total being, he was not divinity with it being everywhere which is then crammed into one limited human being. The man he became is God, that is, he does not stop being the supreme being with that. But his full reality continues, it is everywhere, it is eternal. He is in full union with the heavenly Father as one. Yet in this payment, he bore the penalty with all his being, what we could not bear, and finished it. With this he was cut off from the heavenly Father, an experience that was unique in this one time, and what we can't understand with separation in the one being of God. This that was planned from eternity was what it took and the payment is effective, The feeling of being forsaken was an understatement of the experience that we cannot understand. Yet it was temporary and it was for our sake, with his incomprehensible love for us.

What would you do, then with verse 24...

Psalm 22:24 (The Voice) wrote:He’s not put off
by the suffering of the suffering one;
He doesn’t pretend He hasn’t seen him;
when he pleaded for help, He listened.


Psalm 22:24 (NIV) wrote:For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Psalm 22:24 (KJV) wrote:For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1 NLT)



If I speak with the tongues of men and angels but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. (1 Cor 13:1)
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:37 pm

vycna - there are parts of your statement I am not getting with certainty.

Just to see if some restatement here will help clarify -

I am not one of those who would suggest that while the Christ is in the world God is diminished in the heavenlies, or that God does not permeate the world or did not during the terrestrial life of Christ. Far be it.

But that the Christ while in the world a man was limited as man - albeit with some special traits - that yes.

We too - we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:1 we shall ever be with the Lord. As citizens of Earth we certainly are limited and cut off. But when we withdraw into eternity - are we to figure "ever with the Lord" means for all the time that is left - in a timeless environment? I think not.We there are with the Lord NOW - but to us HERE that is not accessible. How else can we handle Matthew 18:10, "in heaven their [the children's] "angels" do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven".

I would say - Jesus was not abandoned. But all his earthly being excruciatingly felt abandoned.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:24 am

Petros wrote:...
We too - we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:1 we shall ever be with the Lord. As citizens of Earth we certainly are limited and cut off. But when we withdraw into eternity - are we to figure "ever with the Lord" means for all the time that is left - in a timeless environment? I think not.We there are with the Lord NOW - but to us HERE that is not accessible. How else can we handle Matthew 18:10, "in heaven their [the children's] "angels" do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven".

I would say - Jesus was not abandoned. But all his earthly being excruciatingly felt abandoned.

Well said!
Yet even in his despair, Jesus knowingly or not uttered the very prophecy that told of his triumph over sin, death and yes, triumph over despair.
The life of faith comes with moments when we walk through the valley and cannot see the glory of God clearly shining on the mount to which our journey leads.

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way, When sorrows like sea billows roll; Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say, It is well, it is well, with my soul....
Horatio G. Spafford
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby jochanaan » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:16 am

Petros wrote:...I am not one of those who would suggest that while the Christ is in the world God is diminished in the heavenlies, or that God does not permeate the world or did not during the terrestrial life of Christ. Far be it.

But that the Christ while in the world a man was limited as man - albeit with some special traits - that yes....
We tend to forget the understanding that God, and presumably His angels, are not limited in Time or Space in the same way we are. While we cannot be in two or more places at once, He can. So it is entirely possible for Him to be fully present in Jesus of Nazareth at a specific place and time, while also being fully present throughout the universe to guide the stars and galaxies and whatever other intelligent life exists "out there." And perhaps in some way we will not understand till we see His face in Heaven, Jesus was still "in" the Trinity while being separate here on Earth...
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:21 am

jochanaan wrote:We tend to forget the understanding that God, and presumably His angels, are not limited in Time or Space in the same way we are. While we cannot be in two or more places at once, He can. So it is entirely possible for Him to be fully present in Jesus of Nazareth at a specific place and time, while also being fully present throughout the universe to guide the stars and galaxies and whatever other intelligent life exists "out there." And perhaps in some way we will not understand till we see His face in Heaven, Jesus was still "in" the Trinity while being separate here on Earth...


Yes, I figured as much, but you expressed it very well. You are indeed your father's son!
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby Petros » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:21 pm

"We tend to forget the understanding that God, and presumably His angels, are not limited in Time or Space in the same way we are. While we cannot be in two or more places at once, He can. So it is entirely possible for Him to be fully present in Jesus of Nazareth at a specific place and time, while also being fully present throughout the universe to guide the stars and galaxies and whatever other intelligent life exists "out there." And perhaps in some way we will not understand till we see His face in Heaven, Jesus was still "in" the Trinity while being separate here on Earth..."

It is intriguing how these things roll around. A couple weeks back, we were here dealing with some questions from Number 1 Son relating to time versus eternity. Sent out a summary of our debates, copied to Nice Niece Liesl. She send back a report of discussions in her church about the issue of being concurrently here and heaven. After a bit further discussiuon, this - we get a lot of concurrence.
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Re: Blog: Did God Forsake Jesus

Postby vycna » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:25 pm

Psalm 22:24 (NKJV)
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
What I have said does not in any way say that the suffering of the afflicted one (Christ) was despised or scorned. It fulfilled complete justice, and God is pleased in that, with it the plan from eternity. It had incomprehensible value. We who were cut off from God with our sin had no hope of reconciliation without the fulfillment of justice. The Father heard the cry of the Son, and indeed the suffering was put to an end when the justice was fulfilled. Jesus understood this all along and said he came to fulfill the Law, it had never yet been done fully, yet it was not to free us from the morality, we are made free to live according to it without subject to being under the judgment, specifically in coming to Jesus the Lord and savior, and it is according to our faith.

[quote="Petros"]vycna - Just to see if some restatement here will help clarify -
I am not one of those who would suggest that while the Christ is in the world God is diminished in the heavenlies, or that God does not permeate the world or did not during the terrestrial life of Christ. Far be it.
But that the Christ while in the world a man was limited as man - albeit with some special traits - that yes.
We too - we are told in 1 Thessalonians 4:1 we shall ever be with the Lord. As citizens of Earth we certainly are limited and cut off. But when we withdraw into eternity - are we to figure "ever with the Lord" means for all the time that is left - in a timeless environment? I think not.We there are with the Lord NOW - but to us HERE that is not accessible. How else can we handle Matthew 18:10, "in heaven their [the children's] "angels" do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven".
I would say - Jesus was not abandoned. But all his earthly being excruciatingly felt abandoned.[/quote]

We as believers have God with us in this world, indeed there is nowhere that God is not present. Yet with God present in a good way with us is still with us in this imperfect world, not imperfect from God's creation, which was his perfect design that is ideal for us*, but imperfect from humanity's sins. In the restoration with everything being made a new earth amid new heavens, which will have God's redeemed brought to this, there is return to that perfect design and there will never be sin to ruin it. Only those who have chosen God's way can have that for eternity. It is not timeless, but it is not subject to ever having corruption as things are subject to in this imperfection in which we experience time.

* Eating animals for meat as food is not part of that perfect design. This explains many problems with it, that will be seen with an honest look into it. For just one example out of many, http://www.care2.com/greenliving/more-m ... ation.html
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