49 years worth

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49 years worth

Postby DaveT » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:33 pm

All my ancestors since before 1900 were SDA. Then I was educated at home by my mother in a manner that taught me to think for myself, research info on my own, don't believe anything anybody says without sufficient proof of it's validity. The book at http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ gives some idea how modern science is seriously skewed to make it seem to support the theories the professors want it to support. I remain SDA only because I can't find any church closer to biblical accuracy, although I am seeing the church leadership going off the wrong way for the most part. They are loosing their relationship with Christ, failing to maintain biblical standards of worship and ministry, but keep playing church and keeping up a very nice looking fake front. Consequently I wouldn't recommend anyone join it at the present time, (I know that's a heretical opinion but I don't care) That's the doctrinal side.
Now on the spiritual side I was baptized at 11 with consent to the doctrines, but I didn't know Christ. Wasn't till I listened to my mother give a study on prophecy at about 17 that my conscience started to wake up. In the mean time I wanted to appear good on the outside but inside I didn't care. Was even involved in minor criminal activities (shoplifting) I was pretty sly about it and was never detected, but after I began to be converted I tried to pay back everything I'd taken, because I came to understand the value of salvation, and appreciation of Christ's sacrifice started working on my heart. That was early 80's. Since then growth in character has been gradual, there have been ups and downs, but overall a lot of advancement has been made which makes me happy. Late 90's I started praying for direction in life, was unsure what I should pursue. After some time I had a morning experience that was almost mind-boggling. I seemed to be seeing a group of people in heaven, I knew they were there because I'd invited them in some way, but the main thing was the extreme joy. Absolutely overwhelming mind blowing JOY, So powerful it seemed to bury all other pleasures in the dust. It was the joy that Jesus feels to have us there with Him, the joy we all will experience to be there, and that he shares with us as we work with and for Him to help bring others to heaven. The joy that drove Him to endure the cross just to rescue us from this world. The joy that His great love generates. That gave me purpose in life, put me on the way to developing much greater love for others. I know I have a long ways to go but the journey is interesting. Been praying for purity of heart and mind, and it's coming a little at a time. eradicating the evil thoughts and desires that keep trying to take control of my mind. Yielding to those desires is bad for me in several ways, bad for my physical health and polluting my mind. I have found that for me to become like Christ in character is the most wonderful exciting thing that I could ever experience in this world. Although I know it sounds pretty dull to anyone who hasn't experienced it. And when this life ends there will be far greater things to look forward to. The promise he made is; "He that overcometh will inherit all things" The King of the universe is our Daddy, Where does that put us? ------------ Overcome what? the rest of the Bible tells me what. Basically sin. And since the law of God is the basic statement of what sin is. I go back to that law and compare my life with it. I fall short, so I ask Jesus to make me clean, and He does. First by forgiving my past sin, and then His holy spirit cleaning up my life so I can quit sinning.
There were certain sins I had no strength to stop doing on my own, I had to throw myself on his mercy and ask Him to take over. In time He worked in my mind until those things no longer control me, I'm still wondering how it happened. And it's still in progress. Actually I think becoming more of a naturist, understanding the principals behind it, was a small thing that He drug me into to help me out, which some people I have talked to fail to comprehend. But I understand it and that's what matters to me. He's taught me that I should be ashamed of sin, repent of and forsake it, but not of these bodies He created. It doesn't mean I should expose myself to those who haven't learned not to lust after nakedness. But it's no issue when with those who have learned.
I want God to train me for His service and use me to the maximum, I feel as if that's the only thing worth doing, anything less and I will have wasted my time. I don't want to get old and look back on life and wish I'd done it different. Or feel like I wasted my life. I want to be satisfied. Money won't do it. There are already too many rich but miserable people around. Yah money is necessary to live in our society, but make it honestly and use it wisely. And if the Lord sees I can handle lots of it and gives me lots of it, It'll just be so I can help lots of people find that joy that I found. In the mean time I enjoy growing food and being a home mechanic of sorts.
I like technological activities, making things using metal, electronics, whatever. God gave me a good imagination for putting stuff together, so maybe I can put that to work for Him. As well as an enjoyment of gardening, and horses. I don't have enough time to do everything I enjoy doing. I have some knowledge of certain technologies that could be developed into a huge money maker, but so far most of the things I've tried haven't made much and I get by on very little. I don't need much and am happy with what I have, but if occasion happens that I do develop that high powered income machine I'll use it all for others benefit.
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby jochanaan » Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:13 pm

Isn't it amazing how, even when we grow up surrounded by every spiritual advantage, it takes a personal experience to bring our beings back into His ways? I've heard it expressed succinctly: "God has no grandchildren."

To many looking in at SDAs from the "outside," it seems like a near-cult. I give the denomination credit for recognizing Jesus as God Embodied and our only Savior; yet in too many things they have followed inventions of humans, and the degree of control exercised by the church leadership distresses many of us. (If my saying this offends you, I regret that, but that's the way I see things.)

If you are looking for a Biblical Sabbath-keeping church, may I suggest the Seventh Day Baptists. I grew up SDB, and to this day I have close "Christ-family" ties with many in the church, including membership in a local congregation (which, sadly, is too far away from where I live now to permit regular attendance). As a group, they affirm the Trinity, the primacy of Jesus, and the Bible's accuracy and authority; yet on many more "esoteric" questions about doctrine there is great freedom of thought, and we (I still think of myself as basically Seventh Day Baptist) emphasize individual study and accept diversity in beliefs and practices. In other words, we're a stubbornly independent-minded folk. :) Very few of them, unfortunately, recognize the innocence and benefits of naturism. :(
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby DaveT » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:05 pm

I've heard the cult thing many times. With some investigation I've found two reasons for it. One is based on serious misinformation. ( a string of lies) and the other reason is someone who uses the term "cult" really loosely without defining it's meaning. Some people like to label anything a cult that looks different than what they're used to. If there are any other causes I'd like to get to the bottom of it.
I don't believe or do one iota of anything because the pastor said so, or some church official said it. I want to believe and do what the Bible says, all of it. Not taking one or even a few verses, but everything the bible says on a given subject to ascertain it's meaning. And then when a new prophet or messenger shows up and proposes to be receiving information from God. Test them by the word. If they stand the test; are teaching in harmony with previous proven truth. then I can believe what they say, if not forget em. And as I understand it that's the basis that the SDA church started on. Which is basically the same position the true Church of all time has stood on.

I wonder if the "cult" element comes from this; When we throw out all of the pagan traditions and teachings that filtered into the churches during the dark ages, it can look like something really strange. Because the Christian world in general is so accustomed to those pagan customs assuming they are truth. Just because a lie is 1700 years old doesn't make it the truth.
But now if you look at the leadership or visit any one of many of the modern churches yer going to get a really bad view of what the SDA church is. If it had followed the instructions given it long ago, it'd be drastically different. God burned out headquarters once for their persistent disregard of His instructions. He's going to do it again. And when it happens it's going to be a horrendous event that'll almost empty the church.

Another prophet has arisen, not of his own will, he says he begged God to choose someone else. He's not any more perfect than any of us. But it's kind of reminiscent of the old prophets in that the message is condemning sin wherever it may be, no matter who's toes get stepped on. And as usual the church leaders hate him, point out all his faults, (even things that aren't faults as if they were) and ask why would God pick a man like that? Many similar aspects to most of the bible time prophets, specially Jeramiah, John the Babtist, and Jesus himself. Most of them were hated by the leaders and some killed by them. Lots of new information being told, many detailed descriptions of future events. But through it all so far I can't find a single departure from previously proven truth.

The SDA church can be compared to naturism in one aspect. That is when a church goes on for some period of time and gradually drifts into error, then a group of people who recognize the error and want to stay on the path of truth have to separate from the original main group and call themselves by a different name.

It was that way with Abraham when God called him out of Mesopotamia, the Jewish church when Jesus started a new group, The Catholic church and protestantism. Again with protestantism and SDA. Sometimes just returning to the original, sometimes discovering "new" truths that had been forgotten long before. And as time moved on it became more evident how prophecy was being fulfilled and that was added. (with the majority refusing to recognize how prophecy had been fulfilled because it "stepped on their toes", they would have to make drastic changes that weren't convenient if they recognized it)
With naturism, in old times when being naked was an every day working class thing, it was no big deal. But then a drift into a new system where clothing is cheap and plentiful and being naked is considered private stuff and also associated with inappropriate sex. The people who see the drift into not so good theology on the subject have to kind of organize a "coming out" in an attempt to correct the drift, and create a name for it.
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:56 am

I think what makes a cult a cult (in the pejorative sense) is not the leader(s) but the followers. When the followers put the leader on an undeserved pedestal (usually regarding the leader as utterly incapable of error, or other god like capabilities). This is perhaps what makes the heroes of the Bible so credible as human beings. The Bible shows them "warts and all" as the saying goes.
E.G.
-- Elijah spoke powerfully against the priest of baal and brought about their downfall, and death. and then fled in fear of the wrath of Jezebel.
-- Jonah strove mightly to disobey God by fleeing.
-- Paul admitted that even after his calling he still strove against sin and often fell short.
-- Lot is listed among the righteous and yet he nearly prostituted his daughters and later got drunk and impregnated them (albeit with their collusion).
-- Abram dissimulated and passed his wife off as his sister rather than trust that God would protect him and their marriage.
-- Jacob was a swindler.
-- Even Jesus sought to avoid his execution which he knew to be part of the plan of God, and only with anguished prayer submitted to God's will.
-- David was a man after God's own heart but committed adultery and murder to cover it up.
-- Moses said must "I" fetch water and smote the rock rather than touch it with his staff as God commanded.
-- Etc.

The religion of the Bible is very unlike Islam. Islam preaches that every prophet is perfect and sinless and while it recognizes many of the righteous of the Bible as prophets, but regards the Bible as a corrupted text, as in the matter of Lot offering his daughter to the mob. But then Islam proclaims that Mohammed did not sin because he was a prophet, and then records:
-- "Special" treatment by Allah for Mohammed as in allowing him more than the 4 wife limit given to Muslim men.
-- Also there was a sudden change of the invalidation of the practice of adoption when Mohammed wanted to marry the wife of his adopted son.
-- Another special instruction was attributed to Allah when it came to taking Aisha as a child bride[1]
etc. etc.

The denotation of the word cult is related to its etymology (origin) that it denotes group has a distinct culture, but the derogatory connotation of the word cult derives from the evils perpetrated within it when the followers accept evil practices because they regard the leadership as being beyond the possibility of error. And so we have the curiosity that a given group can have members in it because of:
-- sound doctrines found there,
-- and other members who seek the perceived benefits of being there, (e.g. a social group that accepts them, or a special express trip to salvation, or special deliverance from tribulation, etc.),
-- or fanatical devotion to an exalted leader(s) for whom they acknowledge a sort of apotheosis [2]

Curiously such adulation of the leadership is often more than a human can endure and the leader(s) become so mentally unbalanced that they believe what some of their followers believe and become ever more bizarre and go on to otherwise unthinkable extremes and take their followers with them, (e.g. Jim Jones and the people's temple). It is at this point, if not sooner, that one ought to consider that demon possession or influence has entered.

No doubt many reading this may have witnessed a "non-cult" denomination or congregation having members who have a "cultic attraction" either to the group as a whole or some particular person in a leadership position. A few of these do not make the organization a cult, but if the number increases it may become a cult, particularly if there develops a "critical mass" of such adherents or if such adherents are readily tolerated or even encouraged or specifically advanced within the organization. No doubt many of the televangelists mega-church leaders have such followers, whether they want them or not. If they want them, then they are de-facto cult leaders!
-------------------------------------------
[1]
From:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Age_at_marriage

According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad and nine when the marriage was consummated. For example, Sahih al-Bukhari, considered by many Sunni Muslims as the most authentic book after Quran, states:
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
—Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64


Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation. Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.

[2]
From:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apotheosis?s=t

apotheosis
[uh-poth-ee-oh-sis, ap-uh-thee-uh-sis]
noun, plural apotheoses
[uh-poth-ee-oh-seez, ap-uh-thee-uh-seez]
1.
the elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god.
2.
the ideal example; epitome; quintessence:
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby DaveT » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:58 pm

The definitions don't fit SDA at all. any more than they'd fit southern baptist. However there is something that does sort of fit that I've observed, and it happens through all religious systems. And non religious as well. Part of human nature I think, which is why Jesus calls us sheep. Which kind of puts cultic type groups in lots of places where we generally don't think of it as such.
A person who becomes a teacher or pastor, or priest, leader in some capacity. Some people start looking up to the leader and hanging on every word like they were a god and could do no wrong. Then it's not uncommon for the undue attention to cause that leader to start thinking more highly of themselves than they ought. That's where it becomes dangerous. Many false religions have such a beginning. I know several more minor situations like that. In the SDA church and elsewhere. It always leads down the wrong path. I know God chooses imperfect people to work through, they make mistakes, but they need to repent and reform when their mistakes are revealed, just like I have to. That's one thing about Ernie Knoll that is just like the bible prophets. He made a huge goof, got caught up in inventing a story which he at first intended as an allegory of sorts, and then when he realized it was going too far he couldn't figure out how to back out of it. thought he was done for when it went public. It caused a breakdown in his ministry and most of his supporters pulled out. But he repented and it wasn't the end. (He wanted to end it and begged for release from the job, but Jesus wouldn't let him) But that error was a big hook for those to hang their doubt on who didn't like what he was saying anyway. It creates a filtering process, those people who are looking up to the man too much are thrown off their rocker. Those who believe the message based on it's own content, aren't so heavily affected when the man makes a big goofup.
I can take the message, judge it based on it's own content, if it agrees with all previous revealed truth and the law of God, then it may well be valid, and if the messenger is faulty it doesn't necessarily mean the message is too. David was a prophet, and yet we know how seriously he messed up. Solomon was supposedly a really wise man and yet I wonder why, seems like a breakdown of wisdom to take so many wives and drift off into idol worship like he did. And yet he wrote 3 books that are in the Bible. Even Elijah made the mistake of running from Jezebel when he should have stayed right where he was. And of course we know about Moses and his impatience. I think God allowed him to mess up just so he'd realize his own weakness, and so others wouldn't make a god out of him.
Peter goofed up and Paul had to reprimand him. Paul wasn't very forgiving of Timothy. He and Barnabas had an argument over taking him along. They finally parted ways, Paul found another partner and Barnabas took Timothy, who went on to become a respected church leader. (if I remember right he became the patriarch of the church at Alexandria)

So people following a leader blindly believing whatever they say as if they were infallible, is an element of what's been termed a cult. That makes sense. As long as the leader they are following is human.
I think if that leader were to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were God, then it would be OK to believe everything he says as if he were infallible. I think the only case in human history where the proof has been given is in the case of Jesus of Nazareth.
Sometime we; (prophets chosen by God included) are allowed to make serious mistakes, just to keep us from self exaltation, make us realize just how weak we are, and to help prevent other people from looking up to us as if we were gods and causing our pride to swell. Jesus was God, With His Father he was/is Creator and owner of the whole universe. But he was our example of humility. His act of washing his disciples feet was something only lowly servants did. To Judas it was the last straw, in his pride he wasn't willing to serve a King who would humble himself that much. The others allowed His act to humble their own hearts, which was the intended result.
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby Bobby » Mon May 04, 2015 11:06 am

Hi Dave, I'm an SDA too. Welcome to CNV! :)
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby Ramblinman » Mon May 04, 2015 3:29 pm

I won't dance around this, the problem is mostly how many SDA folks treat the writings of Ellen G. White.
Officially her words are not described as scripture, but when I see official books quoting her with a "that settles it" context just as most Christians would do only with the Bible itself, then this puts people in a position of treating her as an apostle.

I admire her devotion to the Lord, but I won't give her a status of apostle when she never claimed that for herself.
Far too many times, evangelists such as Doug Batchelor quote her as authoritative then turn right around and claim that they didn't do so.

There are quite a few Sabbatarian options, but most of them are legalistic to the extreme. Seventh Day Baptists may be one possible exception, but I don't know as much about them as Jochanaan. Some of the Messianic congregations are Sabbath-keepers without being legalistic. It's something you'll have to investigate case-by-case.
Legalism might be a badge of pride with the other Sabbath-keepers, but I have seen firsthand the burnout in the lives of people who try to live that way instead of focusing on the principles of grace that underlie the Mosaic law.
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby jochanaan » Tue May 05, 2015 11:19 am

Ramblinman wrote:...There are quite a few Sabbatarian options, but most of them are legalistic to the extreme. Seventh Day Baptists may be one possible exception, but I don't know as much about them as Jochanaan.
Seventh Day Baptists can't afford to be legalistic; we're too diverse! :)
Ramblinman wrote:Some of the Messianic congregations are Sabbath-keepers without being legalistic. It's something you'll have to investigate case-by-case....
I have attended several Messianic congregations here in Denver. There is considerable diversity in their practices. You can count on hearing some Hebrew at every Messianic service; but some congregations observe every aspect of orthodox Judaism while affirming Y'shua (Jesus) as Messiah, while others are less strict in their observances. And from what I have heard, this diversity mirrors the state of Messianic practice around the nation.
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 05, 2015 11:31 am

jochanaan wrote:...I have attended several Messianic congregations here in Denver. There is considerable diversity in their practices. You can count on hearing some Hebrew at every Messianic service; but some congregations observe every aspect of orthodox Judaism while affirming Y'shua (Jesus) as Messiah, while others are less strict in their observances. And from what I have heard, this diversity mirrors the state of Messianic practice around the nation.


Every time a Baptist or Methodist, Presbyterian (etc...) sings "Hallelujah!" they have sung at least one word in Hebrew.
Every time they say "Amen" at the end of a prayer, they have prayed in Hebrew.

Those of us with Jewish heritage by blood or adoption do want to reconnect with Hebrew culture to varying degrees in our worship.
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby jochanaan » Tue May 05, 2015 11:39 am

Ramblinman wrote:
jochanaan wrote:...I have attended several Messianic congregations here in Denver. There is considerable diversity in their practices. You can count on hearing some Hebrew at every Messianic service; but some congregations observe every aspect of orthodox Judaism while affirming Y'shua (Jesus) as Messiah, while others are less strict in their observances. And from what I have heard, this diversity mirrors the state of Messianic practice around the nation.


Every time a Baptist or Methodist, Presbyterian (etc...) sings "Hallelujah!" they have sung at least one word in Hebrew.
Every time they say "Amen" at the end of a prayer, they have prayed in Hebrew.
Aye, indeed.
Ramblinman wrote:Those of us with Jewish heritage by blood or adoption do want to reconnect with Hebrew culture to varying degrees in our worship.
And even many with no Jewish heritage, such as myself, enjoy such reconnection. 8)
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 05, 2015 2:35 pm

jochanaan wrote: And even many with no Jewish heritage, such as myself, enjoy such reconnection. 8)


You are simply my adopted brother, grafted in to the same olive branch that sustains me and we share the blood of Messiah Jesus shed for all!
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Re: 49 years worth

Postby jochanaan » Thu May 07, 2015 11:18 am

Ramblinman wrote:
jochanaan wrote: And even many with no Jewish heritage, such as myself, enjoy such reconnection. 8)


You are simply my adopted brother, grafted in to the same olive branch that sustains me and we share the blood of Messiah Jesus shed for all!
Of course. "That they may be one..." :) 8)
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