American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Ramblinman » Mon May 09, 2016 7:59 pm

natman wrote:I do not pray for the DEATH of ANYONE... ever. Rather, I pray for spiritual awakening and conversion for EVERYONE, but especially for those who have been elected or elevated to the position of "leader", at every level, from dog catcher to President, cleaning woman to the Pope.

Right now, my biggest prayer is for revival for America in general.

Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:23

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 18:30-32

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. Psalm 116:15
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Bare_Truth » Tue May 10, 2016 9:53 am

Ramblinman wrote:Might need to dust off that Bible and read the first five books of the Bible in particular.
Joseph as a governor of Egypt was more than willing to care for the poor.
The Torah gives explicit instructions on how the government is to provide a safety net for them.
And churches don't come close to meeting the needs of the indigent.
Government programs that provide economic aid are a form of enlightened self-interest if administered wisely.
The Social Darwinism preached by many right-wing Christians today is far from Christian.

Ramblinman: I have indeed read the first five books more than once and topically studied within them in multiple translations, and I really have to say that your reference is too vague to make any sense to me. If you are trying to make a point on a specific topic then citing as a reference
-- 5 books
-- consisting of 279 pages
-- consisting of 187 Chapters
-- with an estimated 142,290 words
-- with numerous personalities
-- with multiple sub-stories
seems rather insincere and a rhetorical ruse equivalent to simply saying, "go away and busy yourself with this task and don't bother me". I have had preachers pull that same nonsense when claiming an unsupportable doctrine.

Using a vague objective, with far far more irrelevant material than substantive example is disrespectful of to your opposite in a discussion. It is like saying "I don't have to prove my point. It is in there somewhere. You go find it and make my argument for me". Textile preachers do that all the time when they say, "Nudity is condemned in the Bible, Just go read it! You will see that I am right!". Although they usually at least misquote a few points.

But if you have some specific examples in mind, preferably by book, chapter, and verse; or even just character, and circumstance/story line, I would be most happy to investigate them as you seem to be sufficiently motivated and confident in the point you wish to make that I ought to give you an honest and fair hearing in hopes of learning something that I may have missed.

I do not mean to sound harsh in my criticism but this is a pet peeve fallacy for me.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 10, 2016 9:59 am

Bare_Truth wrote:...But if you have some specific examples in mind, preferably by book, chapter, and verse; or even just character, and circumstance/story line, I would be most happy to investigate them as you seem to be sufficiently motivated and confident in the point you wish to make that I ought to give you an honest and fair hearing in hopes of learning something that I may have missed.

I do not mean to sound harsh in my criticism but this is a pet peeve fallacy for me.

The example of Joseph is rather specific, referring in particular to his mandate that grain be collected from each farmer, then warehoused in government silos and resold to the public at a fair price in time of famine.
Please see Genesis 41 for details.
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby nakedpreacher » Tue May 10, 2016 12:22 pm

This was a specific plan for a specific time (7 Years of abundance, 7 years of Famine) meant to (in my understanding) fulfill God's specific plan that his people should sojourn in Egypt, Be enslaved, Cry out to him, See the false God's of Egypt destroyed (each plague was aimed at a specific Egyptian deity) and see his hand of Deliverance in the exodus. You could just as well say that it is God's will that we sell our annoying little brothers to into slavery to their distant cousins. The pattern revealed in the panoply of scripture is that God's People take care of one another and those outside, Personally through the giving of Alms. This is carried through to Christianity in the Church taking up collections to share with other churches and in the good works of individuals. The lines are blurry, Israel being, in its beginning, a theocracy, but the tithe was to be brought to the temple, not the kings palace. There is no correlation between tithes and taxes in the OT or the NT.
If, when we judged others, our real motive was to destroy evil; we should look for evil where it is certain to be found, and that is in our own hearts. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 10, 2016 12:50 pm

nakedpreacher wrote:This was a specific plan for a specific time (7 Years of abundance, 7 years of Famine) meant to (in my understanding) fulfill God's specific plan that his people should sojourn in Egypt, Be enslaved, Cry out to him, See the false God's of Egypt destroyed (each plague was aimed at a specific Egyptian deity) and see his hand of Deliverance in the exodus. You could just as well say that it is God's will that we sell our annoying little brothers to into slavery to their distant cousins. The pattern revealed in the panoply of scripture is that God's People take care of one another and those outside, Personally through the giving of Alms. This is carried through to Christianity in the Church taking up collections to share with other churches and in the good works of individuals. The lines are blurry, Israel being, in its beginning, a theocracy, but the tithe was to be brought to the temple, not the kings palace. There is no correlation between tithes and taxes in the OT or the NT.

The 20% tax on grain was for Egyptian citizens by an Egyptian ruler of Hebrew ancestry.
The Hebrew children were not slaves when Joseph lived and this law affected all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity.
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Petros » Tue May 10, 2016 1:51 pm

I do not want to controverse in any big way, but if I can move your cursor up a few lines, two questions, or a comment and a question:
You said
Government programs that provide economic aid are a form of enlightened self-interest if administered wisely.
The Social Darwinism preached by many right-wing Christians today is far from Christian.


On the first - Anarchy is a great social structure if people are not fallen. But - quis custodiet - how convinced are you that the government - any government of the past century - will administer wisely?

On the second - I do not interact with many right-wing Christians, I guess - I have not really encountered this. Who is pushing it?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby jay_p » Tue May 10, 2016 2:01 pm

I will disagree with the second half of this. It is not that we advocate social darwinism, but that more recently at least we castigate the church as a whole for abandoning care of the poor and downtrodden to the government. I am not sure it will be possible to take that care back without being forced to include those things which are contrary to God's Laws. Such as funding abortion etc....

It would be FAR FAR better for local churches and groups to provide that care rather than a massive, bloated, inefficient and almost certainly corrupt federal bureaucracy that waste billions of dollars to try the same thing. Those billions, administered more wisely on a local level would do far more good.
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 10, 2016 2:40 pm

Petros wrote:I do not want to controverse in any big way

Opinions contrary to mine are welcome. "Iron sharpeneth iron"


Petros wrote:, but if I can move your cursor up a few lines, two questions, or a comment and a question:
You said "Government programs that provide economic aid are a form of enlightened self-interest if administered wisely.
The Social Darwinism preached by many right-wing Christians today is far from Christian".

I did not say that government should be the only means of helping people through a rough spot in their lives.
But when I am hungry, I can guarantee that I will not ask your party affiliation, nor ask if you represent a governmental agency or a church. Just help me, please!

Petros wrote:On the first - Anarchy is a great social structure if people are not fallen. But - quis custodiet - how convinced are you that the government - any government of the past century - will administer wisely?

You can drop a few crumbs on the floor as you walk over to hand me a slice of bread. Ideally, you wouldn't, but none of us are that efficient.
I have worked for large corporations and small and seen inefficiency all around.
Do they want my opinion? Usually the suggestion box sits on top of a large waste basket and suggestions fall right through.
About the only thing to wake a company out of lethargy is competition from another business.
Government competes with companies to deliver services. They can mandate a government monopoly, until citizens wake up and throw the bums on the street.
Power is alluring, even to honest men. J.R.R. Tolkien made that point remarkably well in the Lord of the Rings triology.

Petros wrote:On the second - I do not interact with many right-wing Christians, I guess - I have not really encountered this. Who is pushing it?

Right wing Christian radio. They are quite common on the airwaves here.
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Petros » Tue May 10, 2016 7:16 pm

About the only thing to wake a company out of lethargy is competition from another business.
Government competes with companies to deliver services. They can mandate a government monopoly, until citizens wake up and throw the bums on the street.
Power is alluring, even to honest men. J.R.R. Tolkien made that point remarkably well in the Lord of the Rings triology.


All power corrupts....
Historically, the citizens not only need to wake up but to figure how to overpower the goons.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby nakedpreacher » Thu May 12, 2016 3:00 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
nakedpreacher wrote:This was a specific plan for a specific time (7 Years of abundance, 7 years of Famine) meant to (in my understanding) fulfill God's specific plan that his people should sojourn in Egypt, Be enslaved, Cry out to him, See the false God's of Egypt destroyed (each plague was aimed at a specific Egyptian deity) and see his hand of Deliverance in the exodus. You could just as well say that it is God's will that we sell our annoying little brothers to into slavery to their distant cousins. The pattern revealed in the panoply of scripture is that God's People take care of one another and those outside, Personally through the giving of Alms. This is carried through to Christianity in the Church taking up collections to share with other churches and in the good works of individuals. The lines are blurry, Israel being, in its beginning, a theocracy, but the tithe was to be brought to the temple, not the kings palace. There is no correlation between tithes and taxes in the OT or the NT.

The 20% tax on grain was for Egyptian citizens by an Egyptian ruler of Hebrew ancestry.
The Hebrew children were not slaves when Joseph lived and this law affected all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity.

I understand that, I was merely pointing out that it was God setting in motion his plan to bring Josephs brothers and eventually Israel (Jacob) into the land of Egypt where the above mentioned things would happen to them. As you read through you find that it was God's purpose that they be enslaved so that he could demonstrate his power in delivering them from Egypt. Joseph was a wise ruler while he lived but the people of Egypt were not God's people. If we want to see how social safety nets ought to be administered we should look to the theocracy set up after the exodus. Tithes were brought to the temple, not to the judges nor the kings, and a strong emphasis was placed upon the giving of alms by individuals. To add to this I do not know of any beaurocrat with the moral character or integrity of Joseph. Everything (in my experience) that the government tries to do is plagued by waste, graft and corruption and usually ends up accomplishing the opposite of what it set out to do (regardless of which political party sponsors it)
If, when we judged others, our real motive was to destroy evil; we should look for evil where it is certain to be found, and that is in our own hearts. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Ramblinman » Thu May 12, 2016 5:18 pm

nakedpreacher wrote:...I was merely pointing out that it was God setting in motion his plan to bring Josephs brothers and eventually Israel (Jacob) into the land of Egypt where the above mentioned things would happen to them. As you read through you find that it was God's purpose that they be enslaved so that he could demonstrate his power in delivering them from Egypt. Joseph was a wise ruler while he lived but the people of Egypt were not God's people. If we want to see how social safety nets ought to be administered we should look to the theocracy set up after the exodus. Tithes were brought to the temple, not to the judges nor the kings, and a strong emphasis was placed upon the giving of alms by individuals.


I specifically mentioned Egypt because it is a fairly good parallel to the United States, the UK or Australia, that is: a mix of believers and unbelievers in a country that is not a theocracy.
I think they make an excellent example for a Christian bureaucrat to follow.

nakedpreacher wrote:To add to this I do not know of any beaurocrat with the moral character or integrity of Joseph. Everything (in my experience) that the government tries to do is plagued by waste, graft and corruption and usually ends up accomplishing the opposite of what it set out to do (regardless of which political party sponsors it)


I don't know if you are opposed to all government, or if you think all government elected officials are bureaucrats.
Or if you think that bureaucracy is always bad. I contend that it isn't.
That's like claiming that all knives are bad. Some are used for chopping carrots, some are used to commit crimes. Sometimes the same knife is used for both.

But I can think of some Christians who have held political office who have served the Lord with all their might while in public service.
That does not mean that government is perfect or free from waste, but just to name one example, the councilwoman elected to my city ward is working very hard on our behalf.
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby jjsledge » Fri May 13, 2016 5:15 am

Recently came across this post.

“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”—C.S. Lewis

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Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby Jim » Fri May 13, 2016 6:39 am

MoNatureMan wrote:My latest article.

American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Truly America is in full rebellion against the One True Holy Creator God.
-Almost 60 million babies have been murdered by American abortion since Roe v Wade (1973).
I lean against abortion, but the Biblical case is unclear. The Bible never uses describes abortion as murder, and seems to treat it as a lesser crime. A case can be made as "the breath" being the Biblical criterion for life. As I don't know if the young fetus is morally a person, I argue for preserving its life, but believe "murder" is too strong a word for abortion. I agree the high number of abortions is tragic.

MoNatureMan wrote:-The Supreme Court has declared homosexual marriage, the law of the land.
-American Public (State) Schools are teaching American children homosexuality, transgenderism (A boy may be a girl in a boys body), and other sexual perversions
I agree these are a sign of rebellion.

MoNatureMan wrote:-California School system now has unisex restrooms and has eliminated those designated for individual sexes.
I think this may be safer, and more in line with naturist values. Not rebellion.

MoNatureMan wrote:-Houston, homosexual mayor has demanded copies of all sermons from churches, to look for, possible ‘discriminatory language’.
The subpoenas, issued to 5 churches, were withdrawn in 2 weeks.
Houston Mayor Annise Parker subsequently maintained, through a city spokeswoman, that the subpoenas had been issued by pro bono attorneys working with the city, that neither she nor the City Attorney was aware the subpoenas had been issued until after the fact -http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/houston.asp
Look at the Snopes article linked above and you'll learn that what was being searched for was political involvement, not "discriminatory language" or anti-homosexual teaching.

MoNatureMan wrote:-Bakers and Photographers are fined and put out of business because of their belief in Biblical (non-homosexual) Marriage.
Not because of their belief, but because of their discriminatory action. A reasonable debate can be had whether such discrimination was morally justified. How do you love your enemies, love sinners? Not an easy answer. If I were in such a business, I believe I would express my opinion on the subject and suggest the potential customers would prefer another provider for my service, but if they still wanted my service do the best I can. I suspect some of those I sell produce to at the farmers' market engage in perverse sexual acts. It's probably none of my business unless they are seeking my advice or are part of the church.

MoNatureMan wrote:-American Schools have outlawed the God of the Bible, while teaching Muslim culture and religion. Even singing praise to Allah is accepted. Other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Atheism are also accepted and openly taught, while Christianity and Judaism are forbidden
Not really true at all.

MoNatureMan wrote:-American companies (with the help of the media) are threatening local and state governments to not come against any form of sexual perversion.
It is still acceptable to forbid and punish some sorts of sexual perversion. I'm thinking of those things that can be seen as abusing children, animals, or corpses. And many places treat nudity as a sexual perversion.

I agree with your basic thesis that the US is daring God for destruction. Environmental destruction, greed, the oppression of the poor, and war and the obscene amount spent on our military are also major national sins. We are like Sodom:
As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it. - Ezekiel 16.48-50 (RSV)
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Re: American is daring God ‘For Destruction’

Postby MoNatureMan » Sat May 14, 2016 1:57 am

Jim wrote:
MoNatureMan wrote:-California School system now has unisex restrooms and has eliminated those designated for individual sexes.
I think this may be safer, and more in line with naturist values. Not rebellion.

This is the line I expected to get a lot of argument on. My view on this is, we are in America living in a 'clothed culture'. Unisex restrooms can be a goal in the changing of society, however to force unisex restrooms on children that were raised in a clothed society is not good. And when you consider the reason is just to accommodate the sexual perverts, I have to stand against it.

Jim wrote:
MoNatureMan wrote:-Houston, homosexual mayor has demanded copies of all sermons from churches, to look for, possible ‘discriminatory language’.
The subpoenas, issued to 5 churches, were withdrawn in 2 weeks.
Houston Mayor Annise Parker subsequently maintained, through a city spokeswoman, that the subpoenas had been issued by pro bono attorneys working with the city, that neither she nor the City Attorney was aware the subpoenas had been issued until after the fact -http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/houston.asp
Look at the Snopes article linked above and you'll learn that what was being searched for was political involvement, not "discriminatory language" or anti-homosexual teaching.

The homosexual mayor claiming 'we had nothing to do with it'. And the moon is made of green cheese. They were looking for 'political involvement'. That is nothing but a play on words.

Jim wrote:
MoNatureMan wrote:-Bakers and Photographers are fined and put out of business because of their belief in Biblical (non-homosexual) Marriage.
Not because of their belief, but because of their discriminatory action. A reasonable debate can be had whether such discrimination was morally justified. How do you love your enemies, love sinners? Not an easy answer. If I were in such a business, I believe I would express my opinion on the subject and suggest the potential customers would prefer another provider for my service, but if they still wanted my service do the best I can. I suspect some of those I sell produce to at the farmers' market engage in perverse sexual acts. It's probably none of my business unless they are seeking my advice or are part of the church.

Who is being discriminated against. The homosexuals are forcing their values upon Christians that do no believe in that type of wedding. In the case of at least one of the bakers. The homosexuals were constant customers and were supposedly friends. It is when the homosexuals were told the Christians could not do the wedding, because of Christian beliefs, that the homosexuals went crazy. The bakers even gave them names of bakers that would do the job.

Jim wrote:
MoNatureMan wrote:-American Schools have outlawed the God of the Bible, while teaching Muslim culture and religion. Even singing praise to Allah is accepted. Other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Atheism are also accepted and openly taught, while Christianity and Judaism are forbidden
Not really true at all.

Yes it is. But I will save documentation for another discussion. It is after midnight.

Jim wrote:I agree with your basic thesis that the US is daring God for destruction. Environmental destruction, greed, the oppression of the poor, and war and the obscene amount spent on our military are also major national sins. We are like Sodom:

Yes Environmental destruction is a problem, but it has created a massive political boondoggle.
Greed has been and will be a problem until Jesus returns.
Oppression of the poor. Wow. Government welfare is not designed to help the poor, but to create a dependency for votes and to grow that area of the government. Private and religious organizations do many times more per dollar for the poor. It would be best to migrate back to the Church, individuals, and other organizations helping the poor. Not just paying them to not work, but be sure and vote.
Common defense (ie military) is one of the only things the federal government is suppose to do. Read the Constitution.

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