Just What Was Being Hidden

Are you new to this way of life? Does terminology confuse you? Have you heard lots of horror stories that frighten you? This is the place to ask questions about terminology, meanings of words, and more.<P>Only Residents and higher may post here.

Moderators: jochanaan, MatthewNeal, jimmy, natman, Senior Moderator, Moderators

Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby Bare_Truth » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:33 am

The following two quotes originate from a side discussion at http://www.naturist-christians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=16278&p=211691#p211691 I thought that the point being developed was well worth a more thorough discussion and that this was the better venue for such a discussion.
------------------------------------
natman55 wrote:.......Adam and Eve were NOT ashamed of their nude bodies. They were ashamed of the fact that they had sinned against an all powerful God. They did not try to hide their nudity. They tried to hide THEMSELVES by covering themselves with camouflage, leaves that would blend in with the environment in a VAIN attempt to hide from God.

funtobenude wrote: Nathan. Do you have references to support your assertion so that I can use them in discussion with others? How do you know that scholars misinterpreted the words to mean "nude" when they actually mean "exposed?" Thanks.


I am in agreement that this is indeed an important point and a powerful argument that needs to be well supported. This is particularly so because several modern translations assert that they made themselves "aprons" of fig leaves, and that implies that the thing to be covered was the genitalia. Such a translation implies that covering up is to control sexual exposure and hence the nudity = sex idea, and that idea is one of the biggest problems we have to deal with from the textile-prudes.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2428
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby natman » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:49 am

The Hebrew word used was חֲגוֹר - "chagowr". In doing some research, the word is better translated as "girdle" or literally "encircle". The word is most often used in reference to something that is wrapped around the body, frequently as a belt or something to attach a sword, but it can simply mean something similar to a short skirt (waist down) or dress (neck down). My take on the word is that whatever it was, it was "wrapped" around the body rather than draped over the body like a tunic.

Genesis 3:10 indicates WHY they covered themselves with leaves.

"I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked (exposed, in this case, to God's wrath); and I hid myself."
SON-cerely,
Nathan Powers

Get exposed to the sun, and get exposed to the Son.
User avatar
natman
Mayor (Site Admin)
 
Posts: 7245
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 3:48 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby jasenj1 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:54 pm

The difficulty here is that the word translated "naked" is multivalent. The writer certainly knew it. The original ancient Hebrew audience certainly knew it. There are many puns and word plays in the Bible. They get lost in translation and in time. It is dangerous to impose modern meanings and sensibilities onto ancient texts, and to forget the context in which they were written.
jasenj1
Native Resident
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:42 pm

Re: Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby jochanaan » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:59 pm

And certainly the Bible's authors were more comfortable with multiple meaning-levels than many modern theologians.
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
User avatar
jochanaan
Councillor
 
Posts: 6341
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:58 pm
Location: Denver

Re: Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby Petros » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:35 am

I am somewhat handicapped as most of my resources are [somewhat optimistically] packed away and on-line equivalents really are not.

We may note, however, that unless our progenitors took a dive into a more than autumnal pile of leaves, no leafy togs would hide THEM - even if they were dumb enough to . I think we have to assume - though it is not explicit, not much else makes sense short of Revelation 6:15-17 - that the knowledge into which the serpent tricked them told them to hide the parts that nearly all cultures hide or disguise.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5200
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby Bare_Truth » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:57 am

Petros wrote:..... We may note, however, that unless our progenitors took a dive into a more than autumnal pile of leaves, no leafy togs would hide THEM .....

Petros, I think you reason from a misperception. As Adam and Eve had only human eyes, they might well have thought of the function of camoflage in the same way we who use it today do. Camoflage is not a visual barrier nor is it intended to be.

-- A pile of leaves covering one up is a visual barrier but loses that ability unless we also use it as a confinement.
But
-- Adding leaves to ones self or wearing blotchy coloration or even the fringed buckskin of the frontiersman is only to break up the silhouette of the human so that the lines of the human form are broken up and the individual may blend into the background.

Camoflage allows the person to "hide in plain sight to a degree. So by adding garments of fig leaves to the human form, one's ability to hide is indeed enhanced. However it is only a visual hiding from physical beings be they human, deer or mountain lion. Hiding from God is of course not so easy.

So based on their perception of God's capabilities, the idea of Adam and Eve trying to hide by adding leaves to their bodies is entirely reasonable. It works for soldiers in combat, but only to some extent against human visual perception capabilities.
I never met anyone that I could not learn something from.
User avatar
Bare_Truth
Native Resident
 
Posts: 2428
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:07 pm
Location: Ozark Plateau, Southwest Missouri

Re: Just What Was Being Hidden

Postby Petros » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:36 pm

An interesting thought.

Assuming A and E to be monotone of hide and hair, or close, yes, camouflage a la fawn etc would work nicely. Compare The Just So Stories, How the Leopard Got His Spots for a related approach.

My question would be whether a pair of rather unworldly and not exactly quick or deep thinking panicked humans would grasp the possibilities. They had hitherto had no need for or experience with the stealth so important in the non-Edenic world.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
User avatar
Petros
Native Resident
 
Posts: 5200
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:01 am
Location: Wisconsin


Return to What is nudism / naturism?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests