I told my pastor

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Re: I told my pastor

Postby c.o. » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:20 am

From what i understand, Burning Man is not a festival devoted to the glory of God or the celebration of His program in the universe. While some who attend may be so motivated, my guess is most are not. It's therefore not surprising that the festival would be identified by its larger group, and the nudity at the festival regarded as something less than holy to God. Maybe your pastor's speaking of it from the pulpit can be another springboard for personal discussion between him and you; another opportunity for you to show him the difference between your naturism and the hedonism practiced by others. To consider all nudity to be hedonism is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

His idea that A & E were clothed in the glory of God does not seem to be stated in the Garden account. It may be presumptuous on his part, because if they WERE clothed in the complete glory of God, it's hard to imagine they'd have rebelled as they did. God created A & E "very good," which (to me) is not the same as them having been created completely and utterly holy and righteous as God is.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:08 am

To say that because nudity and illicit sex are frequently seen together in online searches, that all nudity is evil...
is akin to saying...
that because published depictions of sex is mostly in an evil context, therefore loving conjugal union of a man and wife must likewise be eschewed.

I have read the theory that Adam and Eve were not really naked because they wore garments of light prior to their fall from grace.
Such talk MAY be based upon other biblical accounts of Moses shining as he descended from Mount Sinai
and Jesus's radiance as he appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration.
However it requires three leaps of faith to assume the "garments of light" doctrine:
1. That the "divine shine" was also visible in Adam and Eve. The Bible is silent on this matter.
2. That the "divine shine" rendered nudity invisible. The Bible is silent on this matter.
3. That the passage in Genesis 2:25 "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." does not mean what it says.

I have also heard of a doctrine that because we are sinners, the human body is now "obviously" indecent and in need of covering.
There is no Biblical basis for a covenant of clothing. The Torah would have spelled out elaborate rituals for such a mandate.
With the exception of priestly garb, the Bible is remarkably silent about clothing, except for the mandate not to weave two different kinds of fiber into one's clothing as a symbol of single-minded devotion to God. In fact, in the ancient world, farmers, fishermen, vineyard workers, herdsmen and common laborers were frequently nude in the warmer months.
Clothing was expensive and would last considerably longer if reserved for warmth in winter, although a shawl may have protected one's shoulders from sunburn during long walks.
Nudity did put one in the status of a commoner, the rich, who did not labor could wear soft linen at all times.
But being nude while working on a hot summer day was not a lewd, sexually-charged act.
Nude baptisms were not controversial in apostolic times.
Even social nudity in Roman baths was allowed by the bishops of the early church, with the stipulation that one no longer behave as a pagan.
Public baths had the function of cleanliness and participation in the social life of one's community.
This is akin to participation in nudist clubs, camps and resorts of our time, at least the family sort of venues.
Christians were to be in the world, but not of the world.

Cultural norms create challenges for applied Christianity.
To what extent do we strictly conform to the expectations of a prudish lecherous America (and other Western countries)?
To what extent do we take a stand for the human body as the Imago Dei, created in the image of God?

If social nudity were merely a harmless indulgence, I might not spend as much time advocating it.
But when I see the force for good that it is in the American family, as well as singles and empty-nest couples, I must move beyond neutrality to a position of advocacy.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:52 am

Ramblinman wrote:.....
But when I see the force for good that it is in the American family, as well as singles and empty-nest couples, I must move beyond neutrality to a position of advocacy.

Rambling man, I have previously seen the benefit of non sexual nudity expounded for familys and also at least for singles to a degree, but as for us empty nesters, not really. Would you care to expound on that facet a bit. I am well aware that social interaction is very necessary for us empty nesters but I have not seen any points made specifically for naturism among empty nesters. Or particularly for empty nesters. I may be missing out on something here :shock: :!: :argh: :doh:
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:20 pm

Bare_Truth wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:.....
But when I see the force for good that it is in the American family, as well as singles and empty-nest couples, I must move beyond neutrality to a position of advocacy.

Rambling man, I have previously seen the benefit of non sexual nudity expounded for familys and also at least for singles to a degree, but as for us empty nesters, not really. Would you care to expound on that facet a bit. I am well aware that social interaction is very necessary for us empty nesters but I have not seen any points made specifically for naturism among empty nesters. Or particularly for empty nesters. I may be missing out on something here :shock: :!: :argh: :doh:


I can speak to what I have seen: many happy empty-nest couples enjoying fellowship, all-over sunshine, exercise and a close-knit community in the nudist camp and resorts I have visited.
Many people take a lifetime to work up the courage to enjoy the openness of body freedom, egalitarianism, and conviviality of nudist venues.
Perhaps they were afraid of their children "spilling the beans", perhaps they were in high-profile careers that made social nudity risky. Perhaps the career and family obligations kept them too busy to enjoy nudist camp as much as they might have wished.

As we get older, we sometimes lose our sense of physical confidence.
Sagging flesh, wrinkles, gray hair, baldness, moles, obesity... we obviously don't have the youthful glow we once had.
However, I have met quite a few senior citizens who find the body acceptance of nudist culture to be very important to self-esteem.
Thankfully, at our campground, we have gentle encouragement by example and by club policy to exercise and partake of the sun openly, without shame.

You might be able to find all these benefits separately, but your local nudist camp rolls this all into one neat package.

Some people have absolutely no privacy whatsoever at home.
Perhaps in retirement they have down-sized. Crowded apartments, neighbor's house overlooking yours, very public patios and yards.
Our nudist time never loses its value, regardless of age.
And seniors need more time in the sun to make vitamin D. Our bodies are not as efficient at it as we once were.

Believe me or doubt me, your choice, but the happy seniors at the resorts, particularly in Florida make my point far better than I can.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Bare_Truth » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:55 pm

Ok, I get it. The way I read it when you first mentioned it I though you implied that there was some special interaction between being an empty nester and naturism. but what you describe is that which generally applies to retirement. I have known some who because they started the family early were empty nesters long before retirement, Of course I would see retirement+naturism+ a resort setting as preferable to retirement alone. Our previous home was a slab on grade affair and what we have now is about twice that size since we have a full basement generously equipped with what formerly detracted from the living space in the previous home. Generally in retirement we upsized in housing space, gardening space total land area, plus a pond and woods of our own. About the only thing we downsized was our taxes as in this agricultural region land prices and taxes are much more reasonable. The only thing that we have not yet done is increased our social naturist face to face experiences and as you know if you are following the meetup efforts MoNatureMan and I are into, we are working on that. The opportunity to share such recreational activities is something that Ron and I are willing, indeed eager to share with those not able because of costs and all the restricting stuff that one sheds in retirement. We are of course working on the Christian and family values side of the equation and that may become all the more important given how the legalities of society are going.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby naturist » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:47 am

prairieboy wrote:He appears to believe that Adam and Eve were clothed in the glory of God before the fall, and therefore did not require clothes.


Even if they were clothed in the Glory of God, they were still husband and wife, so nudity shouldn't have been an issue.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Ramblinman » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:02 am

naturist wrote:
prairieboy wrote:He appears to believe that Adam and Eve were clothed in the glory of God before the fall, and therefore did not require clothes.


Even if they were clothed in the Glory of God, they were still husband and wife, so nudity shouldn't have been an issue.

They were still married to each other, but divorced from God.
But trying to cover up from God is useless.
He sees all, day or night, through walls and clothes as if they were nothing more than water.
And his vision doesn't stop at the flesh, he sees the heart and mind plain as day.
Now that is naked! And all of us are naked before the Lord, except for those of us wearing his righteousness.

As the old song goes...

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found,
Clothed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne!
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby jochanaan » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:52 pm

prairieboy wrote:My pastor has been treating me the same as he always has. However, a few Sundays ago he spoke on a topic and mentioned burning man in it. The references to nudity were negative, and some of the comments may have been directed at me. He appears to believe that Adam and Eve were clothed in the glory of God before the fall, and therefore did not require clothes. We will see how it plays out, and trust God to fulfill His purpose in this. I know He has a purpose in this, and am looking forward to seeing how it plays out. Also to understanding how this will advance the kingdom of God.
Gerald
From my experiences, he probably talked to some other non-naturist pastors or church leaders, and this is what he got. Yet I hope he goes on and does some real research on his own.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:43 pm

jochanaan wrote:From my experiences, he probably talked to some other non-naturist pastors or church leaders, and this is what he got. Yet I hope he goes on and does some real research on his own.


Well sir, it is one thing to be non-naturist, having not taken the time to work through the issues, the Bible and church history adequately.

And yet another thing to be anti-naturist, calling it "case closed".
Those with particularly hardened hearts should be escalated to the Lord in our prayers, until the Lord arranges circumstances for renewed dialog.

In other years, I would have told you, "Mixed nudity is not immoral in itself, but it's probably best to stay well away from it to avoid temptation".
I knew nothing of the nudist community, just recollecting being alone with girlfriends and being uncomfortable with the temptation I felt.
Of course, when I actually visited a nudist camp, I found it akin to a church retreat.
in fact I frequently met pastors and church laity during my initial visits.
A lot of misconceptions were rapidly destroyed by my introduction to chaste nudity.
We do have a particular challenge trying to persuade people to consider the concept with no real-world experience.
For those who claim to object for theological reasons, they might ask, "Why examine the argument of a subculture that is so "obviously" misguided?"

But Baptist theologian Kenneth Scott Latourette and others have clearly documented the long-standing practice of mandatory nude baptisms in the early church.
Obviously not all seminary students are exposed to this facet of church history.
I am inclined toward Sola Scriptura as a principle, but nude baptisms are so steeped in antiquity that it antedates the death of the Apostles.
Even those who are wont to dismiss anything that is not documented within the New Testament, cannot claim that the Church was already corrupt when this practice was begun.
This and nude coed swims at Roman baths were done with the full knowledge of the Apostles and their immediate successors.

So the history of good nudity is there for those willing to examine the secular record.
Not to mention the minds that would change from a study of nudity in the Bible, (employing proper exegesis and historical context of course).
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:50 pm

Footnote:
From the Bardo Museum in Tunis, Tunisia, a Roman age mural depicting fishermen nude, as was their custom in mild weather.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Bare_Truth » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:26 am

This whole notion that Adam and Eve were clothed with anything at all let alone in some sort of shining light or the Glory of God needs to be put to rest and that is easily done by quoting the plain word of God.
[quote KJV translators in translating Genesis 2 account all of which is prior to even being tempted by the serpent:] 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. [/quote]

And the same thing is foun in the following translations.
Apostles Bible ..........................And the two were naked, both Adam and his wife, and were not ashamed.
The Bible in Basic English .........And the man and his wife were without clothing, and they had no sense of shame.
Douay-Rheims .........................And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed.
Darby Bible...............................And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Geneva Bible............................And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Jewish Publication Society OT...And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Green's Literal Translation .........And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.
Greens Modern King James.......And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.
New English Translation............The man and his wife were both naked, but they were not ashamed.
Revised Webster Version...........And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Young's Literal Translation .........And they are both of them naked, the man and his wife, and they are not ashamed of themselves.
James Moffatt Translation .........Both of them, the man and his wife, were naked , but they felt no shame.
The Living Bible (paraphrase)......Now, although both the man and his wife were both naked, neithe of them was embarrassed or ashamed.
A New English Translation (Coulter) ... And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

14 say "Naked" and 1 says "without clothing". It would appear that it takes some pretty distorted exegesis to arrive at the notion that they were clothed with anything what so ever ! Additionally they were without shame over their status.

Does any one know of a single Bible, that is credible as an unbiased source, that translates this any other way ??? And this was all before the "fall" and the way they were created !
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby c.o. » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:27 am

Not being a pastor or a seminarian, i cannot speak for them, and i do NOT disagree with your exegesis, Bare Truth.

But i'm wondering if the idea of A & E being clothed in God's glory is an extrapolation (you might call it eisegesis) from Gen 1:26 and 27 -- male and female having been created in the image and likeness of God. There would be at least SOME level of glory in that; more, perhaps pre-Fall, if it could even be quantified.

That being speculated, and even granted that their bodies pre-Fall had some aspect of glory that was lost when they rebelled, it does seem a stretch to correlate the concept of clothing with the concept of nebulous glory hiding nakedness. The same word translated "naked" in Gen 2:25 is used by Job in 1:21 to describe how a human exits the womb.
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Re: I told my pastor

Postby Petros » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:26 am

And there you have it. Sola scriptura and that inerrant? Believe that as they may, people do not / will not / cannot leave it there. Meanings, not words, saith my old friend Jerome - and meaning requires guesswork and extrapolation and intepretation and is informed by internal and external biasses. Only dialogue with the spirit can get us anywhere solid.

As soon as we start saying not "God used these words" but "God tells us" eisegesis rumbles into town and sets up camp. The front part of Genesis collapses nicely into "God created" and "Man done wrong". Anything else and we are listening to Man not God - unless we are in that Spirit dialogue.
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