A confusion of gender lingo!

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Re: A confusion of gender lingo!

Postby OzTech » Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:59 pm

It has become my conclusion that all the laws commanded by God in the Old Testament were given to address some issue that was present in the society at the time (e.g. the laws of cleansing - to prevent spread of disease... and probably remove body odour for when the priests went into minister). The law about no cross-dressing is probably due to some people engaging in (or attempting to engage in) same sex relationship. Does it still apply today? If people cross-dress to attract others of the same sex then... probably.

As for wearing sarongs (or sulu if you're in Fiji... where I got mine) they are handy (and comfortable) for wearing around the house and in the back yard where there is possibility of neighbours becoming offended but it's probably not something that it would be socially normal to wear down the street within my society. Pity though... I even got a pocket sulu (as well) that the Fiji business men wear in Suva but it'd show the dirt bad if I were wearing it while working around in the back yard. Here in Oz some male nudists (oh... female also) wear them in transit from beach to car rather than putting their togs or clothes on. I don't know if it would be normal for a non-islander male to wear a sulu or sarong in Fiji or Indonesia. I don't recall seeing any doing so the few times I've been to the Pacific Islands. I would like to get a kilt in my clan tartan but they can get expensive and I've only seen one person actually wearing one here in public... at ballroom dancing, actually... other than at Highland Games or in a Scottish Marching Band (that my cousin played in).
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Re: A confusion of gender lingo!

Postby dv8 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:30 pm

Jim wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:So it does seem that you have to be told twice before you will obey?
I am not one who believes that the whole of the Law given to the Jews applies to Gentile believers. Galatians speaks a lot to that subject. Do you sew tassels on the four corners of your garments? Observe the sabbatical and Jubilee years?

If Jesus teaches it, I usually think we Christians should follow it, but sometimes he is probably speaking to a particular situation. I have not sold all I have and given it all to the poor.

I'm with Jim on this. A few years back our (Mennonite) congregation was planning an all-church retreat, and I was chair of the retreat committee. For an activity, we had planned on having folks make a "mazuzah" with words from scriptures that inspired them that weekend:
Wikipedia wrote:(Hebrew: מְזוּזָה‬ "doorpost"; plural: מְזוּזוֹת‬ mezuzot) comprises a piece of parchment called a klaf contained in a decorative case and inscribed with specific Hebrew verses from the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:4-9 and 11:13-21)
Before we proceeded, someone suggested I meet with our local Rabbi to ask him what he thought. It was clear from that conversation that the Jews find the OT law to be for them, and not for Gentiles. And I can't find anything in scripture that suggests otherwise. Yes, all of scripture that is inspired by God is "useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (I Timothy 3:16), and I do believe it is all true and inspired by God - but that doesn't mean all commands apply to every person in every situation. Clearly portions of OT law are still good advice, but the law itself was given to the Hebrews for the Hebrews.
Matthew 5:17-18 wrote:“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
These words do not bind us to every letter and stroke of a letter of the law, but show that the law is subservient to Jesus through his work on earth. If you're hoping to follow all the OT law, there's quite a lot of them, and many that are not the least bit intuitive, so study hard (and beware of Jesus' warning down in verse 20 that breaking even the smallest commandment once will prevent you from reaching heaven). But Jesus' ministry taught us - among other things - the futility of trying to achieve perfection through obedience to the law. Instead, he taught us to love, and let that be the guide for all our actions.

As for needing to be told twice, I rather feel that I need to be told once - by Jesus. I find that reviewing all of the OT as well as the NT letters through the lens of what Jesus taught and how he lived to be quite helpful in understanding how the teaching applies today. And I don't find anything in love, or in Jesus' teachings and example, that tells me I need to worry about what kind of clothing someone wears, as long as it is not intended to offend or cause harm. Or what gender a person believes they are, for that matter. But that is another matter, and I do appreciate the difficulty in normal social interaction with trans-gendered people that Bare-Truth graphed out for us in the OP. I believe can we can handle some difficulty. And maybe we should.
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Re: A confusion of gender lingo!

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:34 pm

dv8 wrote:As for needing to be told twice, I rather feel that I need to be told once - by Jesus. I find that reviewing all of the OT as well as the NT letters through the lens of what Jesus taught and how he lived to be quite helpful in understanding how the teaching applies today. And I don't find anything in love, or in Jesus' teachings and example, that tells me I need to worry about what kind of clothing someone wears, as long as it is not intended to offend or cause harm. Or what gender a person believes they are, for that matter. But that is another matter, and I do appreciate the difficulty in normal social interaction with trans-gendered people that Bare-Truth graphed out for us in the OP. I believe can we can handle some difficulty. And maybe we should.


Jesus is not the only one who spoke ex cathedra:
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit and the Apostle Paul was filled with the promised Holy Spirit as he wrote the following:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. I Cor. 6:9-11

I obey the spirit of the Torah, enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't need to obey the technical ordinances in order to fulfill their intent.

The Old Testament, by the way does have references to non-Jewish believers in the one true God:
Melchizedek, Nebuchadnezzar, Job, Eliphaz the Temanite, Noah, Adam, Eve, Enoch, King Cyrus, the Queen of Sheba, Hiram of Lebanon, Moses's father-in-law Jethro, Uriah the Hittite, to name the ones who come to mind.
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