Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

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Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Lionheart » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:48 pm

Well, let's see. My wife and I are body positive around the kids and get naked when we need to, bath with them, change while they are running in and out, don't rush to get dressed but not nudist at home. I prefer to be naked when I can outside for recreation, so I would say that's more naturistic. I have been to nudist resorts and fit in just fine and happy to do normally clothed activities naked just for the sake of being naked, but I don't feel compelled to live naked. But I guess I would if I could. My wife is still shy about social setting so she would not consider herself a naturist or a nudist, but maybe a skinny dipper. She enjoys that.
I am just a Christian man that enjoys the company of others while naked, naked recreation, naked outdoors, skinnydipping, sauna and hot tub naked, and generally just very relaxed in my skin. I have found that I have come to a place to truly feel no shame in my nakedness. Thus, I might say I'm a non-gnostic but that is not really a word and I don't know what the opposite of gnostic would be. I'm open to suggestions. :wink:
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:14 pm

Lionheart,

You and your wife sound very much like my parents. I am a grown man now and am forever grateful for their attitudes, words and example.
A word for their way of life? Maybe two or three words: A family that had a relaxed attitude about nudity.
But they were not the only influence in my life.
There were people who encouraged me further in the path of freedom, body acceptance and simple natural living.
There were people who mocked every value my parents stood for.
That is every child's lot to some extent.
As fondly as I recall my childhood, I wish that it had included nudist camp, especially the camps or resorts with other boys and girls like me.

Parents are our ultimate role model, but without peers, their work is a lot harder.
I won't suggest your course of action, only to say I have been in a very similar situation and offer my opinion for what it is worth.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Lionheart » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:37 am

It's funny you should offer that advice. This is what I have been thinking a lot about recently. I am feeling that it could be a good thing for them to experience social nudity with peers. In the article about "porn proofing your kids" from MCAG, I think it suggest the need for peer and social nudity so that they understand it as can feel unashamed. I am praying about our next steps and recently read Meeting at the River. It has opened my eyes to the holiness of nakedness, not just its lack of sinfulness. Thanks for your encouragement.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Lionheart » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:09 am

"A study of comparative cultures leads to the suspicion that it could be, that our culture is wrong in this regard; that the evil that has falsely imputed to nudism is in fact an evil in our own minds. It has cut us off from a health-given, wholesome and joyous practice in which children thrive and adults may find an honesty and straight forwardness, and even a spiritual surety and strength that we grievously lack at present. This “piece of work” that is man, how are we to become convinced of its wonder if by the fetish of hiding the body we deny and destroy some of the health and most of its godlike beauty?" Webb 1973

Written regarding a camp for youth that promoted coed naked recreation.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Ramblinman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 am

Lionheart wrote:It's funny you should offer that advice. This is what I have been thinking a lot about recently. I am feeling that it could be a good thing for them to experience social nudity with peers. In the article about "porn proofing your kids" from MCAG, I think it suggest the need for peer and social nudity so that they understand it as can feel unashamed. I am praying about our next steps and recently read Meeting at the River. It has opened my eyes to the holiness of nakedness, not just its lack of sinfulness. Thanks for your encouragement.


"Praying about our next steps" is a wise way to live.

For those who would like to read excerpts and reviews of Pastor L. David Hatton's book, Meeting at the River, here is a good place to start: http://www.pastordavidrn.com/files/MatR.html
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby jochanaan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:35 pm

Lionheart wrote:"A study of comparative cultures leads to the suspicion that it could be, that our culture is wrong in this regard; that the evil that has falsely imputed to nudism is in fact an evil in our own minds. It has cut us off from a health-given, wholesome and joyous practice in which children thrive and adults may find an honesty and straight forwardness, and even a spiritual surety and strength that we grievously lack at present. This “piece of work” that is man, how are we to become convinced of its wonder if by the fetish of hiding the body we deny and destroy some of the health and most of its godlike beauty?" Webb 1973

Written regarding a camp for youth that promoted coed naked recreation.
Wow. :like:
You can live your life in fear--or you can live your life.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby OzTech » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:42 am

Well, Lionheart... since Gnosticism is about supposedly 'having knowledge' my initial guess at the opposite would have been 'being ignorant' :) but I am wrong (and, of course, that would surely not apply). The antonym of gnostic is... 'believer'... so I would hope that 'non-gnostic' (or 'believer') applies to most (or, preferably, all) people here.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Ramblinman » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:50 am

Gnosticism was a belief system that arose among a few pagan groups before the arrival of Christ.
It included a belief in hidden knowledge that was only revealed to the initiated members.
It also had what was called a dualistic view of matter and spirit; spirit being perfect and matter being corrupt.

Christians have always believed that Creation is no longer perfect, but Gnostics defy Christian orthodoxy to teach that the physical world has no remaining goodness from the hand of God the creator.
The Apostle Paul had a real fight on his hands combating the influx of pagan gnostic doctrine into the fledgling churches of his day.
As gnosticism entered Christian thought, it began teaching that Christ came to Earth in spirit only because, if Jesus had had a body, it would have necessarily been a sinful, corrupt body.

While belief in the coming of Jesus in the flesh as well as spirit survived the inroads of gnosticism, other influences did creep in.
Some have argued that gnostic influence is exemplified by the struggle between the great painters of nudes of the Renaissance churches and some in Church leadership who insisted that the nude paintings be removed, draped or painted over with clothing. Gnostic influence is also blamed on the rise of prudishness among Puritans in the Church of England and among some in Catholicism.

Prudishness came late to rural people in Europe. Mixed crowds of men, women and children bathed in rivers or the sea in hot weather as they had down through the ages.
Misguided church and government officials began making more and more inroads into the lives of urban people, passing laws against practical day-to-day nudity.
But the way of life of the gentry and city folk was far removed from daily life in the countryside. Rural folks quietly did what they have always done.
As roads and communications improved, however, the reach of the laws against public nudity expanded as well.

I would not say that the Church (referring to Protestant, Orthodox and Roman Catholic) embraced gnosticism in full, but one can make a case that something caused the rise of prudishness; gnostic influence is a logical place to start looking for responsibility.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Lionheart » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:20 pm

I think the part of Gnosticism that I would like to be "opposite " of is the heretical idea that the body is bad. Agnostic is the true opposite of gnostic... Having knowledge and not having knowledge. Does anyone have an idea if there is a term for the God truth, that we believe as naturist, that the body is not inherently evil or bad or to be covered? Body positive is what we call ourselves at home and to family or friends that ask. Non prudish, mature, free, body positive, Christian, truth seeking, beloved son of my Father! :biggrin:

All good stuff Ramblinman!
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby webmeister » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:11 pm

Ramblinman wrote:Gnosticism was a belief system that arose among a few pagan groups before the arrival of Christ.
It included a belief in hidden knowledge that was only revealed to the initiated members.
It also had what was called a dualistic view of matter and spirit; spirit being perfect and matter being corrupt.

Christians have always believed that Creation is no longer perfect, but Gnostics defy Christian orthodoxy to teach that the physical world has no remaining goodness from the hand of God the creator.
The Apostle Paul had a real fight on his hands combating the influx of pagan gnostic doctrine into the fledgling churches of his day.
As gnosticism entered Christian thought, it began teaching that Christ came to Earth in spirit only because, if Jesus had had a body, it would have necessarily been a sinful, corrupt body.

While belief in the coming of Jesus in the flesh as well as spirit survived the inroads of gnosticism, other influences did creep in.
Some have argued that gnostic influence is exemplified by the struggle between the great painters of nudes of the Renaissance churches and some in Church leadership who insisted that the nude paintings be removed, draped or painted over with clothing. Gnostic influence is also blamed on the rise of prudishness among Puritans in the Church of England and among some in Catholicism.

Prudishness came late to rural people in Europe. Mixed crowds of men, women and children bathed in rivers or the sea in hot weather as they had down through the ages.
Misguided church and government officials began making more and more inroads into the lives of urban people, passing laws against practical day-to-day nudity.
But the way of life of the gentry and city folk was far removed from daily life in the countryside. Rural folks quietly did what they have always done.
As roads and communications improved, however, the reach of the laws against public nudity expanded as well.

I would not say that the Church (referring to Protestant, Orthodox and Roman Catholic) embraced gnosticism in full, but one can make a case that something caused the rise of prudishness; gnostic influence is a logical place to start looking for responsibility.

Thank you Ramblin I like how provided a short easy explanation regarding the gnostics and their influence.
Ramblinman wrote:While belief in the coming of Jesus in the flesh as well as spirit survived the inroads of gnosticism, other influences did creep in.
Some have argued that gnostic influence is exemplified by the struggle between the great painters of nudes of the Renaissance churches and some in Church leadership who insisted that the nude paintings be removed, draped or painted over with clothing. Gnostic influence is also blamed on the rise of prudishness among Puritans in the Church of England and among some in Catholicism.

It almost seems here that gnostics believing the body (corrupt matter) corrupt they would have been against all paintings and sculptures of any human nature...let alone nude.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Ramblinman » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:24 pm

webmeister wrote:It almost seems here that gnostics believing the body (corrupt matter) corrupt they would have been against all paintings and sculptures of any human nature...let alone nude.


Christians influenced by gnosticism are not gnostics in every sense of the word, after all, the teaching that Jesus came in the flesh is still accepted by most branches of Christendom, but your point is a good one: paintings of clothed biblical figures would also offend someone who took it to its logical conclusion.

But let's not underestimate the harm that has been caused by people who rail against nudity in the arts.
Humanity is body, soul and spirit and is a reflection of the Creator.
To reject any part of humanity as evil is to insult the creator of humanity.

There are others who contend that the body is too sacred to be seen by others, with the possible exception of one's spouse. Obviously such a notion could not come from gnosticism.
But I cannot find support for that belief within scripture.
It seems to parallel the Jewish notion that the Divine Name is too holy to be spoken. The Bible clearly shows that it was openly used in Old Testament times.
Not all sanctimony is from God!
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Englishman » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:39 am

I've been following this strip with interest. As the discussion has headed toward the influence of Gnostic thinking on the Church in general and naturism in particular, I thought I'd add my tuppence worth!

Some years ago I read a book called 'Pagans in the Pews'; a study of how Pagan thinking has, almost by intellectual osmosis, penetrated the Church. Sadly, the book in question is still lurking at the bottom of a huge pile of the stuff not yet unpacked &, as we are on the move again, it is liable to remain there; so I can't tell you who wrote it. However, if I remember aright, the author cites numerous examples of how non Christian thinking & attitides have seeped into the way we Christians think.

We've slipped from the concept that God is good (He is!) to a belief system where God disapproves of everything enjoyable (He doesn't). As Christians, & as naturists, it is part of our job to stem the tide of judgemental thinking whilst performing the tricky task of staying true to what the Bible teaches. In this case; the practice of non-sexual social nudity while being able to avoid sin & nuture good things in the generations following us.

I tend to say this last bit quite a lot these days but I believe it to be relevant to life in general & to where this strip has gone too. It is the nature of our relationship with God that produces Godly character not our ability to follow rules. If one goes for the former, the latter is not a problem; Godly behaviour trumps rules everyday. Attempting to keep rules only ends in failure, guilt & grief which, I think, is where we'd got to when Jesus came to set us free from the burden of 'Do this, don't do that'. None of us are perfect but we are, Praise God, works in progress. I don't know about you but I quite like the idea of being changed 'from one degree of glory to the next'!
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Maverick » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:41 pm

Englishman wrote:Some years ago I read a book called 'Pagans in the Pews'; a study of how Pagan thinking has, almost by intellectual osmosis, penetrated the Church. Sadly, the book in question is still lurking at the bottom of a huge pile of the stuff not yet unpacked &, as we are on the move again, it is liable to remain there; so I can't tell you who wrote it. However, if I remember aright, the author cites numerous examples of how non Christian thinking & attitides have seeped into the way we Christians think.


Englishman, is this the book? Looks pretty interesting to me.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby Englishman » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:21 am

That is it indeed, Maverick. It's a stimulating & challenging read but well worth the effort.
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Re: Non-gnostic with naturistic tendencies

Postby jjsledge » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 am

Frank Viola has a few books worth a read. The first three books are definitely worth having.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i ... NPJBFIMYLP

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Those who judge the motives of othere are simply revealing what's in their own hearts. Frank Viola "Revise Us Again" p.89
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