"Sons of God"? & nephalim

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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Petros » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:00 am

Lest anyone think I am not paying attention to this and other weighty discussions:

A few of the Desert Fathers got together and they started talking about some issue - maybe Sons of God, I don't know. They went around the room, each giving an opinion. Finally they reached one hermit - I forget his name, call him Tut like my uncle who was born in time to be nicknamed after Tutankhamen whose tomb had just been found,

Abba Tut answered the question : I don't know.

Abba Petros, host and chair for the group, announced, "Abba Tut got it right.:
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Jim » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:21 am

I agree with you, Petros. May be fascinating, but of little consequence and not much sense that there is a way to know the answer.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:12 am

Jim wrote:I agree with you, Petros. May be fascinating, but of little consequence and not much sense that there is a way to know the answer.

Who is a child of God?
It is none of my business if you are, but I find it of paramount importance to ask that question of myself.
My discovery was that at the time, I was not one of HIS children, but that adoption into the family was freely offered to me,
at great cost to HIM.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby natman » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:48 pm

Ramblinman wrote:Revelation mentions both a "beast" and an individual named "the False Prophet". That is why I believe that the anti-Christ was NOT Nero, but some future leader.
Nero was never paired with a "False Prophet".


I think that a careful reading of Revelation 16 and 17, combined with a study of the 1st Century practice of Gematria and extra-biblical documents in which Nero is directly referred to as "The Beast", will point directly to Nero as "The Beast" of Revelation.

Ramblinman wrote:Rather than "The Beast", I believe that the antiChrist is the "False Prophet" and "The Beast" is a more secular political leader.


"The Beast" (or Nero) is never referred to as "The antichrist" in Scripture. However, because he declared himself to be "god" and because he absolutely denied Jesus was the Christ, he was AN "antichrist" according to the definition of the word by John in 1 John 2 and 1 John 4.

1 John 2:18
[ Warnings Against Denying the Son ] Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Like John's definition of "antichrist", also the author of Revelation, the "False Prophet" is not an individual, but a class of people who send out a false gospel, a way to Heaven that SEEMS right to man, but which leads to destruction. Although someone may be "antichrist" (denying Christ) and a "false prophet", they are actually two classes of people.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby baresoul » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:35 pm

I don't simply toss things like this to a pile of "we will never know". The passages were never meant for being a mystery. I believe revelation is to be understood, though certainly there are different understandings of what is meant, with many passages. The way through those things, for a believer, is with trusting God and the leading of God's Spirit, with prayerful listening, and growing understanding eventually of what there is left to understand from more of the Bible known. We may tolerate each other's different views, there is not another gospel believed from that. But with such passages I see the most natural explanation makes sense, with no suggested from that or other passages that supernatural occurances were happening, for I am sure there would be more clarity about what supernatural occurance took place if there was such.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby natman » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:46 pm

baresoul wrote:I don't simply toss things like this to a pile of "we will never know". The passages were never meant for being a mystery. I believe revelation is to be understood, though certainly there are different understandings of what is meant, with many passages. The way through those things, for a believer, is with trusting God and the leading of God's Spirit, with prayerful listening, and growing understanding eventually of what there is left to understand from more of the Bible known.


I concur that Revelation, indeed all of Scripture can and is to be understood and that proper understanding is through trust in God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. However, proper hermeneutic must also be applied, keeping in mind that God is consistent throughout His Word, that He does not contradict Himself and that, while all of Scripture was written and preserver FOR us, it was not all written TO us.

Unfortunately, while most churches spend a LOT of time in Sunday Schools, Catechisms and Bible Studies, telling us WHAT we should believe, very few spend much time in hermeneutics and apologetics, teaching us WHY we believe what we believe.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby New_Adventurer » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pm

Somewhere buried deep in my storage locker is a book I bought many years ago titled "Know Why You Believe." I need to dig it out and read it again.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby natman » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:41 pm

New_Adventurer wrote:Somewhere buried deep in my storage locker is a book I bought many years ago titled "Know Why You Believe." I need to dig it out and read it again.


Another good book on hermeneutics is "Apocalypse Code" by Hank Hannegraff.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby vycna » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:46 pm

If angels were sexual beings, there should be witness from further scriptures for that interpretation, and not just apocrypha outside of it, which has questionable doctrines. I don't know of any such further scriptures, I am sure there aren't any.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:38 pm

vycna wrote:If angels were sexual beings, there should be witness from further scriptures for that interpretation, and not just apocrypha outside of it, which has questionable doctrines. I don't know of any such further scriptures, I am sure there aren't any.


Vycna, I was not referring to all angels all the time, just those who took on human form in the days of Noah.

In Genesis, "Sons of God" does not refer to humans. "Daughters of men" does.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby baresoul » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:16 pm

Ramblinman wrote:
vycna wrote:If angels were sexual beings, there should be witness from further scriptures for that interpretation, and not just apocrypha outside of it, which has questionable doctrines. I don't know of any such further scriptures, I am sure there aren't any.


Vycna, I was not referring to all angels all the time, just those who took on human form in the days of Noah.
In Genesis, "Sons of God" does not refer to humans. "Daughters of men" does.


Yet the question that was put applies here, there would be witness to that being the right understanding, from other passages of the scriptures, and as was stated, not just apocrypha, where is it then? That witness from scriptures should be there for any understanding of a supernatural occurence, which excludes a natural explanation.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 01, 2018 1:10 pm

In 2 Peter 2:4, we read, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
And similarly in Jude 1:7, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home – these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

There are fallen angels that continue to operate in this world unhindered by chains and certainly not in Hell. So which angels were cast into Hell?
The obvious answer: the angels who took on human form to sin with women.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby natman » Tue May 01, 2018 3:21 pm

Ramblinman wrote:In 2 Peter 2:4, we read, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
And similarly in Jude 1:7, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home – these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

There are fallen angels that continue to operate in this world unhindered by chains and certainly not in Hell. So which angels were cast into Hell?
The obvious answer: the angels who took on human form to sin with women.


I think you may be jumping to a conclusion that is not supported by Scripture. The two verses sited are saying essentially the same thing.

And the fallen angels that operate in this world are indeed "bound". Upon Jesus' death and resurrection, we know that "no one", not Satan, not any of his minions nor even ourselves can "snatch us from the hands of God" if we are in Christ. The remaining fallen angels are like wild beasts which are on short leashes.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

natman wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:In 2 Peter 2:4, we read, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"
And similarly in Jude 1:7, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home – these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

There are fallen angels that continue to operate in this world unhindered by chains and certainly not in Hell. So which angels were cast into Hell?
The obvious answer: the angels who took on human form to sin with women.


I think you may be jumping to a conclusion that is not supported by Scripture. The two verses sited are saying essentially the same thing.

Yes, the similarity of words helps make the case for the special punishment of fallen angels.

Consider also the biblical passages describing demon-possessed people.
These fallen angels could not have been in prison at the time they committed the crime of possessing people (and in one case, a herd of pigs).
Therefore, some fallen angels remain free and the passage in II Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:7 is speaking of another group of fallen angels who committed a more grievous sin and were immediately sent to imprisonment in Hell rather than awaiting the Judgement seat of Christ at the end of time and free to do evil until that day.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Petros » Fri May 04, 2018 6:22 am

I believe revelation is to be understood,


A good author to his readers or tale teller to his audience, a good parent to a child, a good teacher to a student does NOT tell everything immediately in clear. Not here in timebound Earth. Understanding is growth toward a goal - full understanding will come when "will" no longer means anything.

Find a Quantum Physics text. Read the last chapter, throw it away - you now understand qhantum physics, the book ir to be understood, no?

NO! The prophet, the revelator write what they have seen and do NOT undertstand, not as a whole. Perhaps we understand this or that better than they did, as I understand things that would have confounded my grandfather. But the Fat Lady of Creation has NOT sung yet and we understand like looking in a house of mirrors.
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