"Sons of God"? & nephalim

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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby baresoul » Fri May 04, 2018 8:38 pm

Petros wrote:
I believe revelation is to be understood,


A good author to his readers or tale teller to his audience, a good parent to a child, a good teacher to a student does NOT tell everything immediately in clear. Not here in timebound Earth. Understanding is growth toward a goal - full understanding will come when "will" no longer means anything.

Find a Quantum Physics text. Read the last chapter, throw it away - you now understand qhantum physics, the book ir to be understood, no?

NO! The prophet, the revelator write what they have seen and do NOT undertstand, not as a whole. Perhaps we understand this or that better than they did, as I understand things that would have confounded my grandfather. But the Fat Lady of Creation has NOT sung yet and we understand like looking in a house of mirrors.


An individual believer won't understand some things that are revealed. Some things were sealed from being understood, for a time, to yet be ultimately understood, and individual believers can and should grow in understanding things from revelation. God did not reveal things of which understanding would be lost, but there are things to be more understood, and these things are still stated in passages of the Bible. In that sense the revelation to believers is not to keep things from being understood. Relative to sons of God being angels, there would be clear indication if that was the case meant, rather than it being clearly in a form that can be understood in a plain sense that men who were separate to live following God's ways forsook that when they desired any of the women for wives, this meaning all who would be godly forsook godliness, this being great wickedness of humanity that would have all their world judged, and Noah was alone left of godly people, being with his family to lead them that way.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby c.o. » Fri May 04, 2018 10:56 pm

A question to ask, that may be answered beyond a reasonable doubt based on the whole of Scripture:

- Do angels procreate?

Some inferences that seem reasonable based on the answer to the above question:

- If/since angels do not procreate, do they contain human DNA?
-
- If/since angels do not have human DNA, can their hypothetical union with a human female produce anything other than another human?
-
- On what basis may it be hypothesized that a demon-possessed human male could pass on anything BUT human DNA to a female?
-
Since there are reasonable points being made from a variety of opinions, I would just like to emphasize some characteristics of the contextual evidence from the Gen 6 passage.

“Sons of God” is a phrase used once. “Men” is used repeatedly in the same Gen 6 passage, which seems to indicate (to me) that humans rather than angels or angelic/human hybrids are the focus of the sorrow God had over His creation.

6:1 - "when men [not human/angelic hybrids] began to multiply…";

6:3 - "'My Spirit shall not strive with man [not human/angelic hybrids] forever, because he is also flesh"';

6:3 - "'therefore his [man's, not human/angelic hybrids’] days shall be 120 years"'; angels have not died since they were created. They have no flesh to die.

6:4 "Those were the mighty men...men of renown" (not human/angelic hybrids);

6:5 - "YHWH saw that the wickedness of man [not human/angelic hybrids] was great on the earth, and that every intent of his [man's] heart was only evil continually";

6:6 - "And YHWH was sorry that He had made man [not human/angelic hybrids] on the earth";

6:7 - "YHWH said, 'I will blot out man [not human/angelic hybrids] whom I have created... from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them" (no mention of angels or hybrids).

6:12 and 13.

A further, very basic point about context: Who is the author, who is his primary audience, and what were the cultural/historic conditions at the time?

Human author Moses' initial audience: Israelites, dealing with the many, and sometimes fearful, human obstacles faced in their passage into the land God had promised; obstacles such as "men of great size" scouted out by Joshua, Caleb, et.al. Moses’ point to the fearing Israelites is that God has dealt with large humans before, and can just as easily deal with them as they advance in the conquest of Canaan. Fear not. They are only men against almighty God.

A final observation: All saved sinners (humans, as there are no redeemed/saved angels) are considered “sons of God" (cf Luke 6.35). Among other things, the Son of God is considered Brother to the redeemed, and the redeemed are co-heirs with Christ. The redeemed have been adopted into the family of God. It is very reasonable to consider the redeemed as "sons of God."

Correct. We do not have full revelation. But we do have all revelation deemed necessary by the Father. "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" - Jesus. Can Jesus be understood? Quite well, especially by the truly repentant. Jesus also promised (John 16) that His Spirit would come to lead the Apostles into all truth. Yes, sometimes "all" doesn't literally mean all. But the Spirit isn't hiding anything needful from humans, especially fellow-heirs with Christ. Our fallen flesh can interfere with the reception, but God has given His Body the indwelling Spirit, the Apostles, the spiritual truths they wrote which have been supernaturally preserved, pastors and teachers to help.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Petros » Sat May 05, 2018 6:41 am

But we do have all revelation deemed necessary by the Father.


On this we absolutely agree.

Further:

driving down the highway I see a sign: Poffenbergerville 15 MI. That is a revelation, a useful revelation as I travel. I have NOT seen Poffenbergerville and am told nothing about it save the distance. All I need for now.

On angelic DNA:

I do not believe angels - any of the species - operate chemically or secrete DNA. I do not know how they operate manifesting in our continuum.

I personally feel that the mechanics of Nephilim are far off the point of including the tale. Kind of like wondering was Chicken Little a Plymouth Rock or a Leghorn.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Sun May 06, 2018 5:24 pm

c.o. wrote:A question to ask, that may be answered beyond a reasonable doubt based on the whole of Scripture:

- Do angels procreate?

Some inferences that seem reasonable based on the answer to the above question:

- If/since angels do not procreate, do they contain human DNA?

This is where your logic falls apart.
If righteous angels took on human form at some point in history (as did the angels who appeared to Abraham, Sarah, Lot and family), then it is reasonable to assume that fallen angels are capable of doing so as well. If some fallen angels took on human form, it is likely that they had human DNA when they were living in those bodies. But we do not know if the Genesis Giants were produced by angel-induced mutations.
Whether these particular fallen angels had mutated genes themselves or they created mutations in their offspring, we simply don't know.
The offspring were human, but of giant proportions and desperately wicked.

c.o. wrote: “Sons of God” is a phrase used once.


Sorry, there is no Bible verse that warns us to believe only those passages that are repeated! Once is enough.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Petros » Mon May 07, 2018 5:58 am

But the Rev C L Dodgson has one of his characters tell us "What I tell you three times is true." Is that not inspired teaching from an ordained minister of the Church of England?
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Jim » Mon May 07, 2018 6:59 am

c.o. wrote:“Sons of God” is a phrase used once. “Men” is used repeatedly in the same Gen 6 passage, which seems to indicate (to me) that humans rather than angels or angelic/human hybrids are the focus of the sorrow God had over His creation.

It's actually used twice in Genesis 6--in verses one and four. I agree with your reasoning that humans are the focus. The older commentaries say the phrase either means descendants of Seth or religious men. The only other time "sons of God" is used in the Old Testament is three times in Job, where "angels" does seem the best interpretation.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Mon May 07, 2018 2:40 pm

Jim wrote:
c.o. wrote:“Sons of God” is a phrase used once. “Men” is used repeatedly in the same Gen 6 passage, which seems to indicate (to me) that humans rather than angels or angelic/human hybrids are the focus of the sorrow God had over His creation.

It's actually used twice in Genesis 6--in verses one and four. I agree with your reasoning that humans are the focus. The older commentaries say the phrase either means descendants of Seth or religious men. The only other time "sons of God" is used in the Old Testament is three times in Job, where "angels" does seem the best interpretation.


I agree that humans are the focal point.
If sons of God (fallen angels) took daughters of men (humans) to wife, the consent of these HUMAN women (or parents' consent) was sinful, sin by humans that opened the door to demonic evil.
The powerful and tall offspring of these unions were fully human. Mutations do not deny their humanity, but their extra strength was noteworthy.
These powerful despots created kingdoms that hindered the rudimentary gospel message and the work of God.
At least hindered for a season.
But God is not mocked. He will use the destruction of the wicked as a moral lesson to those who come after.
Last edited by Ramblinman on Mon May 07, 2018 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Mon May 07, 2018 2:42 pm

Petros wrote:But the Rev C L Dodgson has one of his characters tell us "What I tell you three times is true." Is that not inspired teaching from an ordained minister of the Church of England?

:lol:
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby jochanaan » Mon May 07, 2018 4:24 pm

Ramblinman wrote:...If sons of God (fallen angels) took daughters of men (humans) to wife, the consent of these HUMAN women (or parents' consent) was sinful, sin by humans that opened the door to demonic evil....
Who says those women had to consent? And even if they did, how would they say No to beings who could appear as "angels of light"?

Furthermore, both Greek and Hindu mythology tell many tales of "gods" or demigods mating with human women, and their offspring are usually heroes, as Perseus or Hercules...
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Mon May 07, 2018 7:29 pm

jochanaan wrote:
Ramblinman wrote:...If sons of God (fallen angels) took daughters of men (humans) to wife, the consent of these HUMAN women (or parents' consent) was sinful, sin by humans that opened the door to demonic evil....
Who says those women had to consent? And even if they did, how would they say No to beings who could appear as "angels of light"?

Furthermore, both Greek and Hindu mythology tell many tales of "gods" or demigods mating with human women, and their offspring are usually heroes, as Perseus or Hercules...


Consent cannot be assumed. Men have taken women for their pleasure since time immemorial.
Even if they were taken as "wives", taken nonetheless without a hint of consent.
Did some consent? I allow for that as well.

I do NOT believe that the Nephilim were doomed to be sinners because of wicked or even demon-possessed fathers.
As Jeremiah said under the unction of the Holy Spirit:
"In those days people will no longer say, 'The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.'
Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes--their own teeth will be set on edge. (Chapter 31, verses 30 and 31)

So, assuming for the sake of argument that a fallen angel took on human form, bred with a human woman and used either natural or supernatural means to produce superhuman (but still human) offspring, I see nothing in scripture that compels us to believe that the children had no choice between righteousness or sin.
But evil parents or an evil culture often influence young impressionable minds.
But I do not believe in bad seed.
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Petros » Tue May 08, 2018 6:50 am

I can certainly believe "bad". But - for which we may all thank God - "bad" is not irredeemable.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Quitosam » Wed May 09, 2018 10:42 pm

Not sure this is a good question, but I heard it posed once concerning this topic. If fallen angles/demons can take on human form what assurance do we have that the resurrection of Jesus was real and not a trick of the devil?
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Petros » Thu May 10, 2018 6:31 am

fruit and witness of the Spirit.
The truth, the stark naked truth, the truth without so much as a loincloth on, should surely be the investigator's sole aim - Basil Chamberlain
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby Ramblinman » Thu May 10, 2018 8:59 am

Petros wrote:fruit and witness of the Spirit.


And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. II Corinthians 11:14
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Re: "Sons of God"? & nephalim

Postby OzTech » Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 am

Another reference which makes me think that angels do not indulge in 'relationships' with men... Mat 22:30 and Mark 12:25 "...they (the resurrected) neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven" implying (to me) that angels do not have, or need to have, any binding connections to another... and... presumably... this would also include any requirements (or desires) to procreate. It was God's commandment to Adam and Eve to go "be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth". This command was not made to any of the angelic host.
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