Hypothetically

[OzTech]

I was wondering....

If someone of vast scriptural knowledge for whom you had uttermost respect for was able to proved from scripture beyond any question or possibility of debate that being naked in company (i.e. anyone other than your spouse... or... perhaps... immediate family) was a sin... what would your response be?

Would you:
a. cease being a naturist/nudist?
b. ignore anything that person had revealed and continue in your current life style?
c. actively argue against any or all of those 'proofs'?
d. pursue some other course of action?

How important is it for people within this forum to be naked when possible and is that more important than their relationship with God.

From the past, one or two of the people I was in Bible College with chose to pursue their own pleasure rather than being a Christian. They realised that scripture was clear that what they were doing was sinful did not try and make the church legitimise their lifestyle (as some others, e.g. the first girl that I that I was keen on, now do).

This, of course, is purely a hypothetical question since it seems highly improbable that there is any definitive evidence that being a naturist/nudist is sinful... unless... of course... that becomes more important to you than your relationship with God.

Personally, I'm a Christian first, foremost and always. Anything else has, at the very best, second place. For this hypothetical situation I would choose option a. I rather hope that this would also be the general consensus within this forum.

Oh... I post this within Christianity and Ethics since I do not yet have permission to post in the other logical strip (General Conversation...).

[jay_p]

I was wondering....

If someone of vast scriptural knowledge for whom you had uttermost respect for was able to proved from scripture beyond any question or possibility of debate that being naked in company (i.e. anyone other than your spouse... or... perhaps... immediate family) was a sin... what would your response be?

Would you:
a. cease being a naturist/nudist?
b. ignore anything that person had revealed and continue in your current life style?
c. actively argue against any or all of those 'proofs'?
d. pursue some other course of action?

How important is it for people within this forum to be naked when possible and is that more important than their relationship with God.

From the past, one or two of the people I was in Bible College with chose to pursue their own pleasure rather than being a Christian. They realised that scripture was clear that what they were doing was sinful did not try and make the church legitimise their lifestyle (as some others, e.g. the first girl that I that I was keen on, now do).

This, of course, is purely a hypothetical question since it seems highly improbable that there is any definitive evidence that being a naturist/nudist is sinful... unless... of course... that becomes more important to you than your relationship with God.

Personally, I'm a Christian first, foremost and always. Anything else has, at the very best, second place. For this hypothetical situation I would choose option a. I rather hope that this would also be the general consensus within this forum.

Oh... I post this within Christianity and Ethics since I do not yet have permission to post in the other logical strip (General Conversation...).

I think at first the would be 'C', but that would seem to preclude the argument that scripture has proven it beyond reproach. if however it was to be shown to be scripturally sound then the only proper course is A.

[Ramblinman]

I was wondering....

If someone of vast scriptural knowledge for whom you had uttermost respect for was able to proved from scripture beyond any question or possibility of debate that being naked in company (i.e. anyone other than your spouse... or... perhaps... immediate family) was a sin... what would your response be?

My response would be that the scriptures this scholar used was NOT the Christian scriptures as handed down from prophets and apostles.
History shows that public nude baptisms have been the rule since the earliest days of Christianity.
History shows that Christians partaking of social nudity in Roman baths throughout the Empire were not forbidden by the bishops of the Church. The only admonition was that Christians behave in a Christlike manner as they bathed with their fellow townspeople.
Both these customs go so far back, all the way to Apostolic times in fact, that they could not possibly have occurred without the implicit and possibly express consent of the apostles themselves.
Anyone who managed to "prove it sinful from scripture" is NOT using the same scriptures the apostles used.

However, taking a look beyond nudism for a moment, the Bible does provide clear teachings on many subjects; one could not in good conscience ignore plain teachings from the Bible.

By the way, you create a false dichotomy when you juxtapose being naked and having a relationship with God

Ministry to the nudist community, whether formal or informal is a high calling and mirrors historic ministry to any other culture in the world in which total nudity was (or still remains) the customary attire of that cultural group. Rather than teaching the natives that one's own culture is one in the same as the perfect will of God and that the native culture is of the Devil, ministry to nude people of any kind is best accomplished in the nude, as an insider in the nudist/naturist community or tribal group.
Nudity is the uniform "worn" by these soldiers of Christ.

So what about those of us who grew up with this as part of our culture? Or adopted it early in life?
Nudist/naturist is who we are!
God has never commanded that converts to Christianity abandon any facet of that culture unless it contradicts the teachings of the Bible.
European missionaries have, in ages past, asked others to give up all of their culture, but this is NOT of God.

[nudie66]

Let me add my two cents by responding indirectly. I've known people with "vast scriptural knowledge for whom you had uttermost respect for" (and am very thankful for having known them). They are the kind of people who rely on the Bible as the absolute and final source of wisdom and guidance. They usually begin their sentences with the phrase, "Well, the Bible says..."

The Bible certainly does warn us many times in Proverbs that wine is a mocker, and beer a brawler. Yet, Jesus' first recorded miracle was creating a vat of wine at the wedding reception in Cana that was noted as being far superior to all the other types that has been consumed there. I'm sure it wasn't a bottle of Welch's grape juice. The Bible doesn't say the wedding attendants were sinning by drinking what Jesus created.

The Bible tells us quite often, especially in Proverbs, that "Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise..." (17:28). In Luke 1:20, Zechariah was told by the angel, "And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time." Yet, the Bible does not tell us that talking is a sin.

Proverbs 23:2 states, "... put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony." Many New Testament verses mention the benefits of fasting. Yet, the Bible doesn't teach us that eating is a sin.

Finally, we (and especially we here in the Village) have found many verses that deal with nudity. Sometimes the nudity was the result of people getting drunk. Sometimes it led the viewers of the nudity to commit murder, out of selfish gain. Sometimes nudity was a normal part of everyday life. I haven't found any verses in the Bible that state nudity is a sin. So, theoretically speaking, I don't believe anyone else would find verses that do. If someone tried to convince me that the Bible teaches that nudity is sinful, I would not:

a. cease being a naturist/nudist;
b. ignore anything that person had revealed and continue in my current life style (They would not have revealed truth, only their own personal opinions.);
c. actively argue against any or all of those 'proofs' (Why not argue? "And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." 2 Tim. 2:24); nor
d. pursue some other course of action.

To sum it up, the Holy Spirit reveals to each of us individually when we are in the wrong. And, He gives us peace when we are in the right. That peace should be our guiding force when someone brings us an opinion that isn't backed up by Scripture.

[Petros]

First - it could not happen. I am a true finger in the side skeptic - WHOEVER says it on WHATEVER basis I have to come there myself.

And having been through the scriptures a few times - I am in the business after all - there is nothing in the scriptures and culrure, custom, and conjecture are not enough.

That said: If God says to me "be fully dressed even in the shower" or "do an Isaiah, walk through the mall nude" or "put on a clown costume and stand up in the middle of the film singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" to the audience - then I do it.

[Englishman]

Petros, I would pay good money to see that last one!

On a more serious note; I agree with you about what scripture does & does not say about being naked, so the arguement falls there for me. I like to think that my mind is open enough, after all I embraced naturism after years of avoiding it & worrying about it, that if it turned out to be wrong or, more personally, I became aware of a call from Him to pack it in, then I would. I'm here to serve God, first & foremost. At the moment I am enjoying doing that with & without my clothes.

[webmeister]

Petros, I would pay good money to see that last one!

... if it turned out to be wrong or, more personally, I became aware of a call from Him to pack it in, then I would. I'm here to serve God, first & foremost. At the moment I am enjoying doing that with & without my clothes.

Englishman, respectively, and to help me learn more, how does one know if a call is from God? It seems our past (be it whatever), our fears, the enemy have an influence on our thoughts. I have always wondered when someone says "God told them to go that path" OR whatever. How does one know for sure???...thanks...

[Englishman]

Hi Webers, I will do that thing. It may take me a bit of time to pull together a full answer, & then condense to a web post something I've read entire books about, but I will get back to you with my answer.

[Petros]

For my part, from my experience:

I feel a pressure to do this or stop that [the time I abstained from joking for a month!].

Is it the world, the flesh, the devuil - or the Holy Ghost?

I don't know.

What does the scientist do? He starts walking [not running]. If it is the world, the flesh, the devil, the heavenly sheep dogs un up ansd nip his heels, turning him away. If it is God, he gets steered, this is the way, walk in it. We are prone to make all kinds of mistakes, but if we listen, if we want to go right - we will wind up in the paddock.

[vycna]

If someone of vast scriptural knowledge for whom you had uttermost respect for was able to proved from scripture beyond any question or possibility of debate that being naked in company (i.e. anyone other than your spouse... or... perhaps... immediate family) was a sin... what would your response be?

Would you:
a. cease being a naturist/nudist?
b. ignore anything that person had revealed and continue in your current life style?
c. actively argue against any or all of those 'proofs'?
d. pursue some other course of action?

How important is it for people within this forum to be naked when possible and is that more important than their relationship with God.

From the past, one or two of the people I was in Bible College with chose to pursue their own pleasure rather than being a Christian. They realised that scripture was clear that what they were doing was sinful did not try and make the church legitimise their lifestyle (as some others, e.g. the first girl that I that I was keen on, now do).

This, of course, is purely a hypothetical question since it seems highly improbable that there is any definitive evidence that being a naturist/nudist is sinful... unless... of course... that becomes more important to you than your relationship with God.

Personally, I'm a Christian first, foremost and always. Anything else has, at the very best, second place. For this hypothetical situation I would choose option a. I rather hope that this would also be the general consensus within this forum.

Oh... I post this within Christianity and Ethics since I do not yet have permission to post in the other logical strip (General Conversation...).

"If" the Bible was saying the times I am staying nude is sinful, I know I would need to put a stop to those times. So that would mean it would be a. cease being a naturist/nudist.

However, no one, however much I would respect their vast scriptural knowledge, is infallible. I as some others here have read the Bible all through a number of times. As a nudist, anything there saying that any nudist living that I experience is sinful would jump out at my attention. It just isn't there. I do know to answer to what is said in there, even if just about everyone else neglects some of those things. I am not actually nude at every possible option for it anyway. I rather prefer it. But sometimes it doesn't seem worthwhile to get undressed and get dressed again soon. I won't use the heating more to be undressed still more. So it would still be b. ignore anything that person had revealed and continue in my current life style, or c. actively argue against any or all of those 'proofs'. They would just be wrong to take that position, however much they are right about everything else, which I would still really doubt anyway.

[OzTech]

Ahh... people... some really interesting responses so far. I really am not making any challenge about whether or not Scripture disputes or supports being naked. The challenge is merely which is more important to you... being a Christian (i.e. following God in whatever He requires of you) or being able to go about naked whenever it suits you.

Something I been hearing recently is how man... even Christians... judge things by our own 'law'.... what we think is best for us... even if others disagree on that subject... but this approaches the concept of 'what is sin?' which I'd like to address with another scenario in a different strip... once I work out how best to present it. It's easy enough to twist scripture to support what we want to think... the difficult part is understanding the biblical concepts in the way God presented them... even... perhaps... in a Hebrew way of thinking, rather than the Greek thought process. We really need the Holy Spirit prompting us when our 'law' has reared up to assert what we want rather than what God has called us to.

Having said that, I hear what you are saying Petros... the Word of God to us must have a witness within us but there should also be one or two witnesses to that Word from outside of ourselves otherwise we become a law unto ourselves and have no accountability to anyone or any fellowship apart from our self. There has been a lot of cases when people have become the sole source of knowledge about the will of God, gathered a following and then a cult or false religion has been generated. My point is, we cannot be alone in what we think or feel God is saying to us. There needs to be some fellowship in it to keep us within perspective. Heaven, after all, is going to be a massive fellowship of God's people in one heart and mind there to worship the Lord. We need to get into the practice of developing the fellowship now.

So... if I've not said that stuff in the best possible way but please try and hear the heart behind it.

[Ramblinman]

Apostolic succession is the checksum of the packet of knowledge we call biblical truth.
If the Apostles were entrusted with the Divine word, they were also entrusted with an infallible means of conveying that word to the next generation.
A heretical sect could claim apostolic succession, but lack it in actual fact.
The Church of England claims apostolic succession for example, but teaches contrary to scriptures, which are a primary guide passed down through the ages, albeit with attempts to alter it.

A more liberal argument is that apostolic succession is NOT guaranteed to everyone who has been "ordained" by pope or bishop, but only by those truly ordained by God.
Not that laying on of hands is meaningless, but neither is it a guarantee that truth will be conveyed undiminished.

[Englishman]

I'm jumping back to Webmiester's question, "How does one know if a call is from God?" Before I get cracking on my answers, I think it only fair to provide you some background so you know where I am coming from in terms of belief, theology & thinking.

For those who haven't read my profile I class myself, when pressed, as a born again, bible believing charismatic Christian. I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit function in this day & age; this will have some bearing on what follows.

How do you know if your spouse, child or friend is in a bad place? You know because, despite what they may say, you know them, their moods & ways, well because you spend a good chunk of your life with them. How did bank tellers, before the advent of ATM's spot dodgy banknotes? By working with real ones day in, day out. For me, knowing the call of God or the sound of His voice, comes easier because I choose to spend time with Him. The more I am with Him, the easier it becomes to discern what He is saying. In this context 'Call' & 'Voice' can carry different meanings. I tend to use 'Call' as being summoned to do a particular work & 'Voice' is, for me, more about one's day to day relationship with Him. Sadly the definitions can get a bit blurred by real life but, in the end, they are both about hearing & responding to what He says & the learning what He sounds like is, I believe, crucial to hearing clearly.

God's call will never contradict scripture; no one is called by God to be an axe murderer, although some may well, because of illness, delusion or the work of the enemy, believe so. Paul tells us in Romans 8:16 that "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God". There can be a sense in which one 'knows' in the depth of one's spirit that this or that course of action is the correct one; again without acting against the teachings of the Bible. One aspect of this is that whatever it is God is bugging you about continues to bug you, you cannot rid your mind of it. This is not obession; that is unhealthy & not of God. It is a persisent, often gentle nagging, regarding a course of action; seeking ordination, heading for full time ministry, getting involved in a particular aspect of your churches' work or even choosing to become a naturist despite most churches & Christians being at least a little uncomfortable with the concept & practice. I didn't feel 'called' to become a naturist; it was, for me, something that made biblical sense the more I thought about it & the more I discovered about it.

In the past I have approached men & women in whom I trusted & asked them to pray about some of these 'gentle naggings' come back to me a few weeks with their responses. If God wants you to do it, He will tell other people He wants you to do it too! But even that is about relationship; I knew them, they knew me & I trusted they would tell me what they heard, not what they thought I wanted to hear.

It is true our experiences will affect how we percieve the world around us for good or ill. Sometimes, we get confused about who or what is speaking to us. Again, I would respond by saying the depth of one's relationship with God will help us clarify who or what is speaking. This is not about the accumulation of intellectual knowledge. It is about getting to know Him better. I suspect someone may come back & say how do I do that? That may be a topic for a fresh strip or, if what I'm saying intrigues or stirs up questions, PM me. I don't charge!

Annoyingly, I have found numerous times that what God wants is a simple but sometimes dangerous response. I have heard it put thusly;
You are standing on a high diving board above a pool in which there is no water. God says to you, "Jump". You respond, "Fill the pool with water & I'll jump." God then says to you, "No, you jump & then I'll fill the pool."
But now we are talking about how much one is prepared to trust God & that too may need to be the subject of a new strip.

This is how it works for me; I hope it's been helpful.

[Petros]

Often and often God indicates we should do something and we refuse or chicken out or just don't hear. Like when Moses wanted Aaaron to do the talking, he often lets us get away with it. But then the choice comes around again.

That is what parents do - how many times that sort of thing with my dad? Often and often the son who said yes does nothing and the son who refused buckles down.

[webmeister]

I'm jumping back to Webmiester's question, "How does one know if a call is from God?" Before I get cracking on my answers, I think it only fair to provide you some background so you know where I am coming from in terms of belief, theology & thinking.

For those who haven't read my profile I class myself, when pressed, as a born again, bible believing charismatic Christian. I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit function in this day & age; this will have some bearing on what follows.

How do you know if your spouse, child or friend is in a bad place? You know because, despite what they may say, you know them, their moods & ways, well because you spend a good chunk of your life with them. How did bank tellers, before the advent of ATM's spot dodgy banknotes? By working with real ones day in, day out. For me, knowing the call of God or the sound of His voice, comes easier because I choose to spend time with Him. The more I am with Him, the easier it becomes to discern what He is saying. In this context 'Call' & 'Voice' can carry different meanings. I tend to use 'Call' as being summoned to do a particular work & 'Voice' is, for me, more about one's day to day relationship with Him. Sadly the definitions can get a bit blurred by real life but, in the end, they are both about hearing & responding to what He says & the learning what He sounds like is, I believe, crucial to hearing clearly.

God's call will never contradict scripture; no one is called by God to be an axe murderer, although some may well, because of illness, delusion or the work of the enemy, believe so. Paul tells us in Romans 8:16 that "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God". There can be a sense in which one 'knows' in the depth of one's spirit that this or that course of action is the correct one; again without acting against the teachings of the Bible. One aspect of this is that whatever it is God is bugging you about continues to bug you, you cannot rid your mind of it. This is not obession; that is unhealthy & not of God. It is a persisent, often gentle nagging, regarding a course of action; seeking ordination, heading for full time ministry, getting involved in a particular aspect of your churches' work or even choosing to become a naturist despite most churches & Christians being at least a little uncomfortable with the concept & practice. I didn't feel 'called' to become a naturist; it was, for me, something that made biblical sense the more I thought about it & the more I discovered about it.

In the past I have approached men & women in whom I trusted & asked them to pray about some of these 'gentle naggings' come back to me a few weeks with their responses. If God wants you to do it, He will tell other people He wants you to do it too! But even that is about relationship; I knew them, they knew me & I trusted they would tell me what they heard, not what they thought I wanted to hear.

It is true our experiences will affect how we percieve the world around us for good or ill. Sometimes, we get confused about who or what is speaking to us. Again, I would respond by saying the depth of one's relationship with God will help us clarify who or what is speaking. This is not about the accumulation of intellectual knowledge. It is about getting to know Him better. I suspect someone may come back & say how do I do that? That may be a topic for a fresh strip or, if what I'm saying intrigues or stirs up questions, PM me. I don't charge!

Annoyingly, I have found numerous times that what God wants is a simple but sometimes dangerous response. I have heard it put thusly;
You are standing on a high diving board above a pool in which there is no water. God says to you, "Jump". You respond, "Fill the pool with water & I'll jump." God then says to you, "No, you jump & then I'll fill the pool."
But now we are talking about how much one is prepared to trust God & that too may need to be the subject of a new strip.

This is how it works for me; I hope it's been helpful.

Thank you much I will chew on this a bit...